Vo2 Max testing- where & how much?

[The Crazy German]

3 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

What is your V02 Max as per Garmin?

I've been trying to figure out who the Garmin algorithms are aimed at. 

I do a brutal 15km trail run with 1000m of elevation and go hard, broken at the end. Get a 150 score and told I need 12 hours recovery. I do a 55km pre work morning ride, go nowhere near as hard, get a 300 plus score and get told I need 79 hours to recover.

The recovery times are also ridiculous and every time I do more work and play less and my 7 day score drops below 1000 I'm suddenly 'Peaking'..... 

My V02 Max has been the same since forever. 

I would love to actually follow the prompts and suggestions they throw out and see what happens to my fitness. I just feel I will need to find a new hobby while I spend 6 days recovering from a Saturday Morning hundy

There recovery is sometimes à bit weird I was quoted 6 hours after à 360k ride in Corsica so we did the remaining 250K after a short sleep, Garmin said I was fine but I felt quite broken myself 

[Mamil]

I'm also 20 with a garmin vo2 of 61 and in the top 1 percent. Could garmin literally be "telling that to all the boys"? 

[bleedToWin]

Wondering if it's 1 percent amongst cyclist my age, or just men my age. If it's the latter then most who train even a little bit should be at or near top 1 percent.

[Frosty]

15 hours ago, Sid the Sloth said:

I don’t experience the same thing. What it could be is your hr becoming less depressed from fatigue so it is more responsive and thus higher at given watts. Idk though I’m no sports scientist, nor a qualified coach with thousands of hours of in-field data that has been analysed.

Added one extra bit of info that is often neglected.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Frosty

[Andymann]

Because of all the cancelled races this year, a few of our Athletes have been willing to try a few new things with Training.  Dinamic has partnered with INSCYD https://inscyd.com/faq/ which creates a Metabolic Performance Profile of an athlete which then influences how their training program is structured.

Early days, but the majority of the Athletes who did the profile (myself included) were training in completely the wrong zones for their profile.  My FTP and Garmin V02 for example were way out compared to what INSCYD calculated.

Like I said, still early days and I'm not 100% certain how one single cycling test can give you all that Data, but its an interesting change to how I have been training - the easy is EASY and the hard is bloody hard.  But both my Wife and I who are on it are losing weight at a rapid rate and I haven't noticed any drop in power from it (yet).  No goal races this year, so I'm willing to try something new.

 

 

[The Ouzo]

15 hours ago, mecheng89 said:

I hope you're not serious about 79 hours recovery for a 55k ride, maybe sprinkling it with exaggeration. 

Its not uncommon for my Garmin to tell me i need 36 to 48 hours recovery after my morning 27km ride. Whether I ride or not the next day is usually based on how I feel and my HRV that morning.

 

Speaking of VO2, according to HRV4Training mine is considerably lower than what you guys are quoting, and also I've noted a drop of 1 since getting back into riding after COVID

[Muttley]

13 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

My fitness age is also 20 apparently. I felt 85 today and apparently I'm Peaking!

I guess I'm saying that the algorithms and the data is often not particularly trustworthy if you are looking for data for data sake.

It can progressively track your ups and downs, but the values are likely to be pretty bogus a lot of the time.

I was banging out the last couple of km of a run the other day, fully relaxed, barely pushing and the HR on the watch said I was revving at 175... I pushed the watch up to the wrist bone and suddenly it was 90. 

These sorts of things going unchecked for a whole 3 hours will massively influence how those algorithms direct you. Luckily I'm not particularly good at any of it and do it all for fun as part of a sanity routine and the 'numbers' and recommendations have become a bit of a side joke in our house.

Have you tried a chest strap?

I find the wrist based stuff a total waste of time... my 2 C

[Frosty]

24 minutes ago, Andymann said:

Because of all the cancelled races this year, a few of our Athletes have been willing to try a few new things with Training.  Dinamic has partnered with INSCYD https://inscyd.com/faq/ which creates a Metabolic Performance Profile of an athlete which then influences how their training program is structured.

Early days, but the majority of the Athletes who did the profile (myself included) were training in completely the wrong zones for their profile.  My FTP and Garmin V02 for example were way out compared to what INSCYD calculated.

Like I said, still early days and I'm not 100% certain how one single cycling test can give you all that Data, but its an interesting change to how I have been training - the easy is EASY and the hard is bloody hard.  But both my Wife and I who are on it are losing weight at a rapid rate and I haven't noticed any drop in power from it (yet).  No goal races this year, so I'm willing to try something new.

 

 

I changed to EASY and HARD training at the beginning of August, after having a consultation with an INSCYD partner. I am enjoying my workouts more, and find I'm not as fatigued as I would be after doing the "old style" training. As you have said, it's early days (me included), and I hope to learn a lot from this partner. Having a level 1 coaching certificate allowed me that opportunity (to join them, as an apprentice).

Good luck with your athletes.

[The Ouzo]

34 minutes ago, Frosty said:

I changed to EASY and HARD training at the beginning of August, after having a consultation with an INSCYD partner. I am enjoying my workouts more, and find I'm not as fatigued as I would be after doing the "old style" training. As you have said, it's early days (me included), and I hope to learn a lot from this partner. Having a level 1 coaching certificate allowed me that opportunity (to join them, as an apprentice).

Good luck with your athletes.

I realise it probably cant be explained in detail in 1 or 2 posts, but do you care to give a brief explanation of how this Easy and Hard training works ?

[Underachiever]

19 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

What is your V02 Max as per Garmin?

I've been trying to figure out who the Garmin algorithms are aimed at. 

I do a brutal 15km trail run with 1000m of elevation and go hard, broken at the end. Get a 150 score and told I need 12 hours recovery. I do a 55km pre work morning ride, go nowhere near as hard, get a 300 plus score and get told I need 79 hours to recover.

The recovery times are also ridiculous and every time I do more work and play less and my 7 day score drops below 1000 I'm suddenly 'Peaking'..... 

My V02 Max has been the same since forever. 

I would love to actually follow the prompts and suggestions they throw out and see what happens to my fitness. I just feel I will need to find a new hobby while I spend 6 days recovering from a Saturday Morning hundy

I ignore what the Garmin says and rather listen to my body.  Plus a bit of logic. 

At my age it will be silly to do 4-5 super hard days in succession.  But I know I can do a block of 3 fairly hard days, have a rest day and feel super on day 5.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Underachiever
spelling.....

[Underachiever]

7 minutes ago, ouzo said:

I realise it probably cant be explained in detail in 1 or 2 posts, but do you care to give a brief explanation of how this Easy and Hard training works ?

I think Bikeradar has a good article on this.  (Your hard days are too easy and you easy days are too hard).  

Also read stuff on sweet spot training....

[J Wakefield]

2 hours ago, Andymann said:

Because of all the cancelled races this year, a few of our Athletes have been willing to try a few new things with Training.  Dinamic has partnered with INSCYD https://inscyd.com/faq/ which creates a Metabolic Performance Profile of an athlete which then influences how their training program is structured.

Early days, but the majority of the Athletes who did the profile (myself included) were training in completely the wrong zones for their profile.  My FTP and Garmin V02 for example were way out compared to what INSCYD calculated.

Like I said, still early days and I'm not 100% certain how one single cycling test can give you all that Data, but its an interesting change to how I have been training - the easy is EASY and the hard is bloody hard.  But both my Wife and I who are on it are losing weight at a rapid rate and I haven't noticed any drop in power from it (yet).  No goal races this year, so I'm willing to try something new.

 

 

Garmin is not accurate 
INSCYD... (there is a validation study coming out on it)

[Frosty]

1 hour ago, ouzo said:

I realise it probably cant be explained in detail in 1 or 2 posts, but do you care to give a brief explanation of how this Easy and Hard training works ?

Basically a Polarised approached to training. 80/20 principle and a 3-zone model for training, rather than the 5-7 zones that are popular.

Polarised means 8/10 workouts are EASY; this is below a level called LT1. Then 2/10 workouts are HARD; above a level called LT2.
 

LT1 (Zone 1) and LT2 (Zone 2) is when the blood lactate levels are at specific point. It is usually measured in lab, but it can be done on a workout based on your power output, The zone between LT1 and LT2 is commonly known as Sweet Spot as well as the lower end of the Threshold zone. It is not used much in Polarised training and is known as zone 2.

The intensity range when you first start generating lactate, is known as LT1. When you reach the next level when blood lactate is no longer sustainable (production is greater than the body’s ability to buffer it), this is known as LT2.

Research (Stephen Seiler) shows that the average trained rider should do a 6-minute test to get a VO2max power peak, and possibly your LTHR peak too. This is your Max Aerobic Capacity. 

The next test is 60 minutes (your FTP). Not the 20-mins * 0.95 test or other tests, but a full max effort for 60-minutes. Many people overstate their FTP using the 20-mins*0.95 or a ramp test. This test gives you the absolute truth for the power you can sustain for a hour. This is approximately the lower end of Zone 3 (LT2). 

The limit between Zone 1&2 (LT1) is then about about 80% of your FTP (the proper 60-minute effort). It’s close, but not 100%.

Hope it helps understand when Easy is Easy and Hard is Hard.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Frosty

[DIPSLICK]

agree Garmin tells me stupid recovery needed, not the fittest but I sure as hell don`t need 78 hours rest after riding an hour with my daughter, me resting heart rate first thing tells me where i`m standing I ride for fun i`m not near serious enough but I havent been sick due to over training in a long time

different level of athlete what ever works go for it,, even if its JUST IN YOUR HEAD

[MudLark]

18 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

What is your V02 Max as per Garmin?

I've been trying to figure out who the Garmin algorithms are aimed at. 

I do a brutal 15km trail run with 1000m of elevation and go hard, broken at the end. Get a 150 score and told I need 12 hours recovery. I do a 55km pre work morning ride, go nowhere near as hard, get a 300 plus score and get told I need 79 hours to recover.

The recovery times are also ridiculous and every time I do more work and play less and my 7 day score drops below 1000 I'm suddenly 'Peaking'..... 

My V02 Max has been the same since forever. 

I would love to actually follow the prompts and suggestions they throw out and see what happens to my fitness. I just feel I will need to find a new hobby while I spend 6 days recovering from a Saturday Morning hundy

Hello Jewbacca, mine is 54 but I'm heading towards 60 years. 

It's also top 1%, 20 years fitness age. 

I am somewhat doubtful about the accuracy of these things in the absence of a power meter but with consistent use of a power meter, it seems to be pretty accurate. 

I have watched it move up and down with my fitness over the last 2.5 years and it has taken me 2+ years of consistent work with a coach to break through into the purple zone ('superior'). For example, I haven't missed a single workout session in the last 15 weeks. Typically five sessions a week. I am not a natural athlete, so it's taken a bit of doing. But in fairness, I started off from a practically zero base at the beginning of 2018 after having sat on my proverbial for the previous 30 odd years. Been a hell of a lot of work and commitment but well worth it.

I'm still a pretty k@k cyclist though. Although my cardiovascular fitness is great, my FTP sucks. In large part because of my proximity to the refrigerator… But that's another discussion. ????

[MudLark]

5 minutes ago, DIPSLICK said:

agree Garmin tells me stupid recovery needed, not the fittest but I sure as hell don`t need 78 hours rest after riding an hour with my daughter, me resting heart rate first thing tells me where i`m standing I ride for fun i`m not near serious enough but I havent been sick due to over training in a long time

different level of athlete what ever works go for it,, even if its JUST IN YOUR HEAD

I find mine is pretty consistent on the rest periods. I also find the PC number very useful. I doubt the accuracy of these numbers if you don't have a power meter that you use consistently. With the power meter, different story. PC, you have to have a power meter anyway.