Dopers suck

[Frosty]

3 minutes ago, Danger Dassie said:

More importantly Tucker is also at pains to emphasise that Caster’s case shouldn’t be conflated with doping and/or trans. 
All completely different issues on their own.

💯

[DieselnDust]

10 minutes ago, Zebra said:

The OUTCOME, was similar, D&D, surely?
 

the drug cheats, ala Jama Kratchilova (Testosterone, most likely) and Caster Semenya (Testosterone, though naturally-occurring), produced the near-identical results, near-Male results in a Female running event….

So, whist I agree the one was doping, and the other natural, the OUTCOME was to put them both in a DIFFERENT LEAGUE to the other 12-15 competitors….?
 

Or do I have it wrong?
Chris

Is it natural that once in while an athlete will move the bar. I don’t understand where we as a society became so obsessed with the outcome and forgot about the “How”. 
we can’t say we want clean performance but these criteria x,Y,Z ,ABCmust also be fulfilled. Where does it stop then? Do we define a woman by hair nails and testosterone levels? So if it’s too high they must go do something else? Sounds like a lot of negative discrimination hiding under the facsade of protecting sport. We’ve been down this road before.
throughout history extraordinary people have pushed the boundaries forward. Whether that be intellectual talent or physical talent, they are celebrated. But. It in this case which has become far more complicated that it needs to be simply because she pushed back and said I will not be bullied. She is how she is as a consequence of a fluke of genetics. Not due to some doctors testtube. She has participated in her profession and her condition only became a problem becssue she won. If she wasn’t winning her condition wouldn’t be a problem. So what her competitors are really afraid of is simply that she is better than them. 
sort of Lewis Shamilton wanting the rules changed because Max is better than he is. Sounds all too familiar , it’s a simple issue but “intellectuals” want to hide behind intellect which is really just ignorance and bigotry.

just imagine if a genius level kids wasn’t allowed into a school because they’d make the other kids look stupid….

being naturally better should not be a point of negative discrimination 

[Frosty]

40 minutes ago, Zebra said:

The OUTCOME, was similar, D&D, surely?
the drug cheats, ala Jama Kratchilova (Testosterone, most likely) and Caster Semenya (Testosterone, though naturally-occurring), produced the near-identical results, near-Male results in a Female running event….

So, whist I agree the one was doping, and the other natural, the OUTCOME was to put them both in a DIFFERENT LEAGUE to the other 12-15 competitors….?
 

Or do I have it wrong?
Chris

Caster doesn’t have an extra-ordinary high level of testosterone as a female, but rather because she is a male. The sex chromosome defines whether we are male (1x and 1y) or female(2 x)… it really is as simple as binary.

She was born and raised as female, but it wasn’t her choice to choose female. She was being forced to lower her testosterone level, in order to compete in her chosen distance, which is part of the human rights issue part of the case. It’s explained extremely well by Dr Ross Tucker, even the emotional side of it.

The end of the day, females should be protected, by having their own category without having to compete against someone that isn’t genetically a female at birth. The scientific proof is not yet there to prove the male doesn’t have an advantage. This doesn’t make her a cheat, because the rules at the time didn’t take these cases into account. 

[mazambaan]

Slight change from Caster; Kenyans getting a bit of attention as serial dopers. Who would have thought?

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/66223437

 

[Skubarra]

2 hours ago, mazambaan said:

Slight change from Caster; Kenyans getting a bit of attention as serial dopers. Who would have thought?

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/66223437

 

Very interesting story 👍

[Shebeen]

13 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

Is it natural that once in while an athlete will move the bar. I don’t understand where we as a society became so obsessed with the outcome and forgot about the “How”. 
we can’t say we want clean performance but these criteria x,Y,Z ,ABCmust also be fulfilled. Where does it stop then? Do we define a woman by hair nails and testosterone levels? So if it’s too high they must go do something else? Sounds like a lot of negative discrimination hiding under the facsade of protecting sport. We’ve been down this road before.
throughout history extraordinary people have pushed the boundaries forward. Whether that be intellectual talent or physical talent, they are celebrated. But. It in this case which has become far more complicated that it needs to be simply because she pushed back and said I will not be bullied. She is how she is as a consequence of a fluke of genetics. Not due to some doctors testtube. She has participated in her profession and her condition only became a problem becssue she won. If she wasn’t winning her condition wouldn’t be a problem. So what her competitors are really afraid of is simply that she is better than them. 
sort of Lewis Shamilton wanting the rules changed because Max is better than he is. Sounds all too familiar , it’s a simple issue but “intellectuals” want to hide behind intellect which is really just ignorance and bigotry.

just imagine if a genius level kids wasn’t allowed into a school because they’d make the other kids look stupid….

being naturally better should not be a point of negative discrimination 

next stop. the Phelps has bigger feet argument! Can't believe we are still here 15 years later.

 

12 hours ago, Frosty said:

Caster doesn’t have an extra-ordinary high level of testosterone as a female, but rather because she is a male. The sex chromosome defines whether we are male (1x and 1y) or female(2 x)… it really is as simple as binary.

 

if only it was that simple as binary, it's because it is not binary that we have anomolies in trying to work out where to draw the line between the female and male category for sports.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development

 

 

14 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

 

I think ;ets agree to disagree on this one. We can park till the last ramblings play out at the CAS or the Olympic Committee or whereever the case goes to next.

I'd rather a natural human take the record than a drug cheat. thats just me keeping it simple

it's not that simple and you are most definitely wrong about this one, so keep that position if you want. ASA cocked it up in the beginning, because they are palookahs. the lawyers got involved, the sponsors got involved the policiticians got involved. they stuffed up the science. Caster is a flippen legend, she has handled this with grace and humility, (the Nike money helps). But she shouldn;t be competing in the female category.

 

 

[J Wakefield]

10 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

 

it's not that simple and you are most definitely wrong about this one, so keep that position if you want. ASA cocked it up in the beginning, because they are palookahs. the lawyers got involved, the sponsors got involved the policiticians got involved. they stuffed up the science. Caster is a flippen legend, she has handled this with grace and humility, (the Nike money helps). But she shouldn;t be competing in the female category.

 

 

They tried to hide it. It was exposed and **** hit the fan to where it went. 

[Frosty]

13 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

if only it was that simple as binary, it's because it is not binary that we have anomolies in trying to work out where to draw the line between the female and male category for sports.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development

It is binary, but it’s treated as a violation of someone’s rights to be tested, which is why it’s not being done currently. This is the reason why sport codes are starting to ban non-biological women from competing in the women-only category.

2 X sex chromosomes makes one female. They compete in a female category only. Anyone who is 1X/1Y is not female, whether they identify as female or not, and must compete in an open competition.

[DieselnDust]

27 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

next stop. the Phelps has bigger feet argument! Can't believe we are still here 15 years later.

 

if only it was that simple as binary, it's because it is not binary that we have anomolies in trying to work out where to draw the line between the female and male category for sports.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development

 

 

it's not that simple and you are most definitely wrong about this one, so keep that position if you want. ASA cocked it up in the beginning, because they are palookahs. the lawyers got involved, the sponsors got involved the policiticians got involved. they stuffed up the science. Caster is a flippen legend, she has handled this with grace and humility, (the Nike money helps). But she shouldn;t be competing in the female category.

 

 

Phelps…. Nee man let that go. Bolt has bolted. Those are normal variables 

we’re dealing with an intersex individual that the SAathletics and iaaf didn’t know how to deal with. There have been intersex athletes in the past , just not as successful. Yes all parties have stuffed the handling of this issue and the result is an individual that suffers for being nothing other than herself. The issue was about doped performance vs a natural performance, the rear we can agree to disagree. Should she have been allowed to compete as woman in the first place? Probably not but here we are, an individual that has to defend herself with more vigorous than a drug cheat and likely will jy be welcomed back to her disciplines with as open arms as a drug cheat would. I have a fundamental problem with the double standard that is being sold as fairness. Like I said , we can agree to disagree and still have a lekker hot chocolate and a laugh

[Shebeen]

26 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

Phelps…. Nee man let that go. Bolt has bolted. Those are normal variables 

we’re dealing with an intersex individual that the SAathletics and iaaf didn’t know how to deal with. There have been intersex athletes in the past , just not as successful. Yes all parties have stuffed the handling of this issue and the result is an individual that suffers for being nothing other than herself. The issue was about doped performance vs a natural performance, the rear we can agree to disagree. Should she have been allowed to compete as woman in the first place? Probably not but here we are, an individual that has to defend herself with more vigorous than a drug cheat and likely will jy be welcomed back to her disciplines with as open arms as a drug cheat would. I have a fundamental problem with the double standard that is being sold as fairness. Like I said , we can agree to disagree and still have a lekker hot chocolate and a laugh

ok. we definitely agree on that then. also that this is probably no the right thread for it, but there is clear overlap on many of the drivers behind the decisions made by authorities.

Also what is not widely reported in the media is the actual "toxic drugs" she was required to lower her testosterone levels to compete under previous rules. You and I know them as the female contraceptive or simply "the pill", hardly some unknown dangerous chemicals and very common amongst her competitors..

Caster (or her handlers/team) chose to fight this clearly losing battle. To keep it cycling related so did Floyd.

43 minutes ago, Frosty said:

It is binary, but it’s treated as a violation of someone’s rights to be tested, which is why it’s not being done currently. This is the reason why sport codes are starting to ban non-biological women from competing in the women-only category.

2 X sex chromosomes makes one female. They compete in a female category only. Anyone who is 1X/1Y is not female, whether they identify as female or not, and must compete in an open competition.

If it was only that simple. Under your rules you'd be happy for the very rare XX Males to compete as females then?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

They actually stopped chromosone testing in the 80s, after 20 years of quietly asking XYs competing as females to leave it went to courts. It would make the most sense to bring this back, with all exceptions, but easier said than done!

 

 

[bleedToWin]

15 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

but these criteria x,Y,Z ,ABCmust also be fulfilled. Where does it stop then?

When you have a sporting category for people that cannot compete against the best people in that sport, you must define what it is that limits their ability to compete and by extension qualifies them for said category. Do you object to blind cricket having a definition of what it means to be blind? How would you set up a female sporting category without criteria for what it means to be female?

[DieselnDust]

25 minutes ago, bleedToWin said:

When you have a sporting category for people that cannot compete against the best people in that sport, you must define what it is that limits their ability to compete and by extension qualifies them for said category. Do you object to blind cricket having a definition of what it means to be blind? How would you set up a female sporting category without criteria for what it means to be female?

Surely your birth certificate says all? That document doesn’t change or can a transgender change their BC now? I don’t know where the world is with this right now since it’s all going bedornerd

[Danger Dassie]

2 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

Surely your birth certificate says all? That document doesn’t change or can a transgender change their BC now? I don’t know where the world is with this right now since it’s all going bedornerd

This is actually asked and answered within the last posts from Shebeen. Also there is NO relevance to transgenderism. 

[Pandatron]

We should have an open category where everything is allowed, in fact encouraged. That would be great TV

[Mamil]

On 7/21/2023 at 4:16 PM, love2fly said:

Last time someone called me Cupcake, we spent the night together ...

I wouldn't spend the night with anyone who called me cupcake. 🧁

[lechatnoir]

2 hours ago, Pandatron said:

We should have an open category where everything is allowed, in fact encouraged. That would be great TV

who wouldn't want to see someone run the 100m in 4sec?