Dopers suck

[NGM]

5 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

Love this post. Totally on point without being moralistic.

Thanks. Ya to some guys EPO was the unexpected but only choice they had if they didn't want to go back to subsistence farming in Kazakhstan. Not always easy to take the moral high ground and (contrary to what my teachers said) "Everyone else is doing it" does actually make things different in my opinion.

[Shebeen]

29 minutes ago, NickGM said:

That era was rife with the kind of doping most of us still associate with the word: somebody with unnecessarily large and veiny deltoids injecting anabolics in a darkened corner of some training facility. There is a brilliant book called "The dirtiest race in history" which documents the build up to the 1988 Seoul 100m finals. Only one of the 8 men who lined up that day was not caught for some form of doping. I think he came last. Ben Johnson was the most notorious of course. To cut a long story short, the Eastern Block countries were miles ahead of the game with the state sponsored programs in an effort to say "Hey look at us, Communism is the best". Coaches from the west soon figured out what they needed to do to get their athletes to keep up. If you don't know about her, look up Jarmila Kratochvilova. Her 800m record is the longest standing record in athletics I believe.

But it's not like some after school special "Don't do drugs hmmkay" scenario, it's always more complex and I came away from it actually feeling a lot of sympathy/empathy for the likes of Ben Johnson. Much the same as I did reading all of the EPO-era cycling biographies. The list of people who made it that far in the sport and then turned away once they realized what they needed to do to stay in the game is very small.

I'm sure I've posted similar versions of this story a few times. It's just really interesting to me. Sport could benefit from some sort of TRC/amnesty process IMO.

There's a few documentaries floating around, in one of them they get one of the scientists from the time and he puts it very bluntly - "obviously the biggest gains were for females and we did it systematically, the german way" - no one else was as meticulous as we could do it.

 

This "record" will be 40 years old on wednesday. kiff negative split (not even Rudisha did that for his 800m WR which was also form the front)

 

 

 

Also on a similiar level of failing the sniff test. the all time top20 women's 3000m record where a splendid batch of turtle soup got some incredible never to be repeated times in beijing over 2 days. Will be 30ys ago later this year, none of the current athletes even come close.

 

 

[DieselnDust]

30 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

There's a few documentaries floating around, in one of them they get one of the scientists from the time and he puts it very bluntly - "obviously the biggest gains were for females and we did it systematically, the german way" - no one else was as meticulous as we could do it.

 

This "record" will be 40 years old on wednesday. kiff negative split (not even Rudisha did that for his 800m WR which was also form the front)

 

 

 

Also on a similiar level of failing the sniff test. the all time top20 women's 3000m record where a splendid batch of turtle soup got some incredible never to be repeated times in beijing over 2 days. Will be 30ys ago later this year, none of the current athletes even come close.

 

 

I reckon Castor could challenge those records but ya apparently it’s better to be a drug cheat than a human anomaly. 

[mecheng89]

3 hours ago, PygaSchmyga said:

So I clicked the link for curiosity to see what other shenanigans was going on in SA sport and I must say, never did I expect to learn about the vicious competitiveness of Bowls!  I don't know any of these substances but jirre man this chick is juicing faaktap!

 

Zohra and Ramoleli, I hope you're good at something else, because ain't no way you're getting back into powerlifting and athletics.

[Shebeen]

1 hour ago, DieselnDust said:

I reckon Castor could challenge those records but ya apparently it’s better to be a drug cheat than a human anomaly. 

You mean Caster*?

That's a separate issue, she shouldn't be competing in the women's category so her PB as the 4th fastest should be retroactively scrubbed too. No I haven't got my pronouns mixed there, but good to see this complex issue has sort of run its final course.

There was hope she would take this record, but that wouldn't not really have cleared things up then would it?

 

[ChrisF]

3 hours ago, NickGM said:

.... Coaches from the west soon figured out what they needed to do to get their athletes to keep up. ....

 

The sad reality of it all ....

 

Friends of the family own a cycling shop.  As often happens, their son moved up the ranks in competition.  By 1999 he had his eyes on springbok colours ....  Thats when he told us what he would need to do to move up that last notch.  Most of his competitors had briefcases full of gummyberriejuice .....

 

He walked away ....

[gerriemtb]

4 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

If you ever played or even watched a game of bowls you will know that it’s a tensely fought competition 😂

Some say the competitors also have the highest mortality rate of all sports 

[ChrisF]

1 minute ago, gerriemtb said:

Some say the competitors also have the highest mortality rate of all sports 

 

Certainly VERY tough on the liver .... 

[PygaSchmyga]

2 hours ago, gerriemtb said:

Some say the competitors also have the highest mortality rate of all sports 

bare knuckle bowls?

[DieselnDust]

7 hours ago, Shebeen said:

You mean Caster*?

That's a separate issue, she shouldn't be competing in the women's category so her PB as the 4th fastest should be retroactively scrubbed too. No I haven't got my pronouns mixed there, but good to see this complex issue has sort of run its final course.

There was hope she would take this record, but that wouldn't not really have cleared things up then would it?

 

 

I think ;ets agree to disagree on this one. We can park till the last ramblings play out at the CAS or the Olympic Committee or whereever the case goes to next.

I'd rather a natural human take the record than a drug cheat. thats just me keeping it simple

 

 

[Zebra]

9 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

I reckon Castor could challenge those records but ya apparently it’s better to be a drug cheat than a human anomaly. 

The OUTCOME, was similar, D&D, surely?
 

the drug cheats, ala Jama Kratchilova (Testosterone, most likely) and Caster Semenya (Testosterone, though naturally-occurring), produced the near-identical results, near-Male results in a Female running event….

So, whist I agree the one was doping, and the other natural, the OUTCOME was to put them both in a DIFFERENT LEAGUE to the other 12-15 competitors….?
 

Or do I have it wrong?
Chris

[Frosty]

10 minutes ago, Zebra said:

The OUTCOME, was similar, D&D, surely?
 

the drug cheats, ala Jama Kratchilova (Testosterone, most likely) and Caster Semenya (Testosterone, though naturally-occurring), produced the near-identical results, near-Male results in a Female running event….

So, whist I agree the one was doping, and the other natural, the OUTCOME was to put them both in a DIFFERENT LEAGUE to the other 12-15 competitors….?
 

Or do I have it wrong?
Chris

8:17 - the latest on Caster get’s discussed here. What actually happened and was reported in the media was not the same.
https://podcasts.apple.com/za/podcast/the-real-science-of-sport-podcast/id1461719225

[Danger Dassie]

More importantly Tucker is also at pains to emphasise that Caster’s case shouldn’t be conflated with doping and/or trans. 
All completely different issues on their own.

[Frosty]

3 minutes ago, Danger Dassie said:

More importantly Tucker is also at pains to emphasise that Caster’s case shouldn’t be conflated with doping and/or trans. 
All completely different issues on their own.

💯

[DieselnDust]

10 minutes ago, Zebra said:

The OUTCOME, was similar, D&D, surely?
 

the drug cheats, ala Jama Kratchilova (Testosterone, most likely) and Caster Semenya (Testosterone, though naturally-occurring), produced the near-identical results, near-Male results in a Female running event….

So, whist I agree the one was doping, and the other natural, the OUTCOME was to put them both in a DIFFERENT LEAGUE to the other 12-15 competitors….?
 

Or do I have it wrong?
Chris

Is it natural that once in while an athlete will move the bar. I don’t understand where we as a society became so obsessed with the outcome and forgot about the “How”. 
we can’t say we want clean performance but these criteria x,Y,Z ,ABCmust also be fulfilled. Where does it stop then? Do we define a woman by hair nails and testosterone levels? So if it’s too high they must go do something else? Sounds like a lot of negative discrimination hiding under the facsade of protecting sport. We’ve been down this road before.
throughout history extraordinary people have pushed the boundaries forward. Whether that be intellectual talent or physical talent, they are celebrated. But. It in this case which has become far more complicated that it needs to be simply because she pushed back and said I will not be bullied. She is how she is as a consequence of a fluke of genetics. Not due to some doctors testtube. She has participated in her profession and her condition only became a problem becssue she won. If she wasn’t winning her condition wouldn’t be a problem. So what her competitors are really afraid of is simply that she is better than them. 
sort of Lewis Shamilton wanting the rules changed because Max is better than he is. Sounds all too familiar , it’s a simple issue but “intellectuals” want to hide behind intellect which is really just ignorance and bigotry.

just imagine if a genius level kids wasn’t allowed into a school because they’d make the other kids look stupid….

being naturally better should not be a point of negative discrimination 

[Frosty]

40 minutes ago, Zebra said:

The OUTCOME, was similar, D&D, surely?
the drug cheats, ala Jama Kratchilova (Testosterone, most likely) and Caster Semenya (Testosterone, though naturally-occurring), produced the near-identical results, near-Male results in a Female running event….

So, whist I agree the one was doping, and the other natural, the OUTCOME was to put them both in a DIFFERENT LEAGUE to the other 12-15 competitors….?
 

Or do I have it wrong?
Chris

Caster doesn’t have an extra-ordinary high level of testosterone as a female, but rather because she is a male. The sex chromosome defines whether we are male (1x and 1y) or female(2 x)… it really is as simple as binary.

She was born and raised as female, but it wasn’t her choice to choose female. She was being forced to lower her testosterone level, in order to compete in her chosen distance, which is part of the human rights issue part of the case. It’s explained extremely well by Dr Ross Tucker, even the emotional side of it.

The end of the day, females should be protected, by having their own category without having to compete against someone that isn’t genetically a female at birth. The scientific proof is not yet there to prove the male doesn’t have an advantage. This doesn’t make her a cheat, because the rules at the time didn’t take these cases into account.