Do eBikes belong on the mountain?

[stringbean]

I just can’t get my head around the “ my heart is stuffed and shouldn’t be riding “ or got dodgy hips or knees but let me go ride a ebike.

I just see that as asking for trouble on the trails.

Riding the ebike is not going to all of a sudden remove what some people have as a serious medical condition

[Shebeen]

Had a chance to ride the 2019 trance e this weekend.

WOW.

From someone who has constantly slated them I’m not sure anymore.

this is the attitude I've seen all over this thread:

so you slated them=>rode one=>changed your mind.

 

Good lesson here that I have also learnt myself over the years. Don't be overly critical on something until you try it first.

[capediver]

Had a chance to ride the 2019 trance e this weekend.

WOW.

From someone who has constantly slated them I’m not sure anymore.I can understand the enduro guys looking at it to get 5 or more enduro runs in.Its insane.

I’m still completely against shops selling to newbies with no skills or people that are so medically f@cked they shouldn’t even bee in a wheelchair now riding a ebike.

Not sure what the issue is with newbies?

 

Here's what I propose...when you want to buy a new bike, here's what you need:

• a certificate from a bicycling skills/training academy approved by the Minister of Transport...valid only for the specific type of bike or discipline...valid for 1 year due to technological advances in the industry.
• a logbook with every ride signed and stamped by a certified bicycle operator/trainer, someone like Swen Lauer UCI certified trainer...you'll need at least 100 hours at the academy before you qualify to get a new bike
• a medical certificate from a sports physician specialising in bicycle sports medicine proving that you a medically fit to ride that type of bicycle...valid for one year
• a skills test in the parking lot on a track approved by same above Ministry of Transport, different track for each discipline....
• a monkey puzzle quiz encompassing bicycling history through the ages, current banned drugs list and road traffic laws pertaining to bicycles as well as "rules of the mountain" etiquette for MTB
• surrendering of your golf membership and the shop will quarantine your golf clubs just in case you sneak onto a mashie course while in Knysna

 

Sarcasm font used for all of above...just couldn't resist  !!!!

[Eldron]

this is the attitude I've seen all over this thread:

so you slated them=>rode one=>changed your mind.

 

Good lesson here that I have also learnt myself over the years. Don't be overly critical on something until you try it first.

The question is - what do people like about ebikes?

 

I would guess that it's only "faster for the same effort".

 

It's cool soft pedalling and accelerating like a scalded cat but that's about the only benefit an ebike offers.

 

Which then gets me to thinking - why do we ride in the first place?

[ChrisF]

The question is - what do people like about ebikes?

 

I would guess that it's only "faster for the same effort".

 

It's cool soft pedalling and accelerating like a scalded cat but that's about the only benefit an ebike offers.

 

Which then gets me to thinking - why do we ride in the first place?

 

If I bought an ebike now it would open many new trail options for me.  At least that may be an option .....

 

But as my knees improve and my distances increase I am soon to pass the typical distance afforded to an ebike battery .... based on the 2018 spec bikes, sure the next generation will go further

 

 

 

looking 2 or 3 years into the future .... Maritz may soon bypass me in terms of speed and distance .... then we would need to rethink our options .... does he turn down the wick to ride with me, and loose out on pushing his limits, or do I get an ebike to try and keep up ....

 

 

 

for now I am getting by without an ebike, but who knows what the future holds for us ....

[Eldron]

If I bought an ebike now it would open many new trail options for me. At least that may be an option .....

 

But as my knees improve and my distances increase I am soon to pass the typical distance afforded to an ebike battery .... based on the 2018 spec bikes, sure the next generation will go further

 

 

 

looking 2 or 3 years into the future .... Maritz may soon bypass me in terms of speed and distance .... then we would need to rethink our options .... does he turn down the wick to ride with me, and loose out on pushing his limits, or do I get an ebike to try and keep up ....

 

 

 

for now I am getting by without an ebike, but who knows what the future holds for us ....

Yup. Personal circumstances are always different. The reason I ask is that there seems to be disparity between what is said on message boards (medical issues, age/gender gaps etc) versus what I see on the trails (lots of healthy looking blokes on very expensive ebikes).

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Yup. Personal circumstances are always different. The reason I ask is that there seems to be disparity between what is said on message boards (medical issues, age/gender gaps etc) versus what I see on the trails (lots of healthy looking blokes on very expensive ebikes).

Just come back from riding Tokai, doing hill repeats. While I was there, Mr Masters World DH Champ Chris Nixon himself just breezes past me on his new trek e-bike, doing his own repeats. He's normally blisteringly quick on the uphills, but with the essistance it's just insane how much trail time he actually gets. In the time I'd done 4 repeats, he'd done about 8. Chatting to him about it and he reckons it's drastically changed his training regimen. He still works as hard, he just manages to cover twice the distance that he normally does. So he still gets the same workout, but gets double the descending. Which is what fosters skills development as well. 

[ChrisF]

Yup. Personal circumstances are always different. The reason I ask is that there seems to be disparity between what is said on message boards (medical issues, age/gender gaps etc) versus what I see on the trails (lots of healthy looking blokes on very expensive ebikes).

 

Funny you should say that .....

 

Friend just came back from Europe, brought back an ebike .... FIT hiker .... now use the ebike to get to the gym, use it to get to the local shops ....  okay, not exactly the trail riders that you refer to.

[Eddy Gordo]

[Zatopek]

Just come back from riding Tokai, doing hill repeats. While I was there, Mr Masters World DH Champ Chris Nixon himself just breezes past me on his new trek e-bike, doing his own repeats. He's normally blisteringly quick on the uphills, but with the essistance it's just insane how much trail time he actually gets. In the time I'd done 4 repeats, he'd done about 8. Chatting to him about it and he reckons it's drastically changed his training regimen. He still works as hard, he just manages to cover twice the distance that he normally does. So he still gets the same workout, but gets double the descending. Which is what fosters skills development as well. 

 

"gets double the descending" = trail take double the traffic / time unit

 

Good example of why E-Bike are welcome, but need to contribute proportionally to funds/costs that do are used for trail maintenance.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

"gets double the descending" = trail take double the traffic / time unit

 

Good example of why E-Bike are welcome, but need to contribute proportionally to funds/costs that do are used for trail maintenance.

erm, no.

 

Are we going to make the faster / fitter riders pay more? I'm pretty sure Nino would have done the same amount of distance as Nixon on a normal training ride, without having assistance. 

 

Builders build and maintain. As a previous member of the TokaiMTB committee, and part-time volunteer builder of many of the trails in Tokai, I would help maintain & improve the trails. A guy who knows how to ride, riding an e-bike, would have far less impact on a trail than a noob who drags his brakes all over the place, or the rain that falls on the trail. Making an e-biker pay more just because they cover more distance in the same amount of time is ridiculous. The ONLY place they make up time is on the uphills. Down, it's all the same unless you're able to put a couple of pedal strokes in out of the corners and get a teensy bit of assistance to get you back up to speed. 

 

Maintenance is maintenance. You're not going to need to do more just because more riders are on e-bikes. You're going to need to do more when there are more beginners, more weather, more braking where you shouldn't and so on. Plus, the requirement for maintenance never stops. Charging one subset of users more than another just because they cover more distance is ridiculous. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Captain Fatbastard Mayhem

[Zatopek]

erm, no.

 

Are we going to make the faster / fitter riders pay more? I'm pretty sure Nino would have done the same amount of distance as Nixon on a normal training ride, without having assistance. 

 

Builders build and maintain. As a previous member of the TokaiMTB committee, and part-time volunteer builder of many of the trails in Tokai, I would help maintain & improve the trails. A guy who knows how to ride, riding an e-bike, would have far less impact on a trail than a noob who drags his brakes all over the place, or the rain that falls on the trail. Making an e-biker pay more just because they cover more distance in the same amount of time is ridiculous. The ONLY place they make up time is on the uphills. Down, it's all the same unless you're able to put a couple of pedal strokes in out of the corners and get a teensy bit of assistance to get you back up to speed. 

 

Maintenance is maintenance. You're not going to need to do more just because more riders are on e-bikes. You're going to need to do more when there are more beginners, more weather, more braking where you shouldn't and so on. Plus, the requirement for maintenance never stops. Charging one subset of users more than another just because they cover more distance is ridiculous. 

 

Traffic contribute to trail damage. More traffic = more damage. (up/down/direction is not important - take a circular loop for the argument)

 

The same skills distribution between newbies and expert are going to be on ebikes for this argument. ( At least, I'm NOT even arguing that e-bikes might have more newbies on top)

 

Look at the words that you used in your post to indicate "disruption" and the factors mentioned - It indicate a significant change in traffic volume.

 

The maintenance costing model will need to be addressed if ebike numbers increase. At least increased for everyone right? Or are there other models that is more fair?

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

The maintenance costing model will need to be addressed if ebike numbers increase. At least increased for everyone right? Or are there other models that is more fair?

Traffic isn't nearly as large a driver of trail wear as you think it is. It's mainly improper technique and weather. Yeah, okay - more **** riders = more wear, but it's only a portion of the driver ito total trail wear.

 

As for the Maintenance Model, it's perfectly fine at the moment (except at Tokai where there's no money for maintenance thanks to Parks) and Patrick et al do a good job given the amount of trail they need to maintain. IMO they actually do too MUCH maintenance of trail at the moment, especially on trails such as Cobra which run far better when they're open to the elements and not smoothed over every 6 months. The maintenance requirement won't increase as a result of e-bikes being allowed on the trails. What will increase it is excessive rain, wind, bad braking practices (creating ruts) & more distance on the trails. 

 

Still - in response to your assertion of unequal pay for different riders / classes of bikes, it's a solid no. Will your model allow for the extra impact that skinny tyres have due to their smaller contact patches and lower levels of grip (which encourages skidding etc)? Or faster riders? A cost per lap? Per kilogram over a certain level? 

 

No. A single cost per user will always be the best option. 

[DirtyFrank]

I have an old army buddy who used to be a fairly serious athlete, Iron man, Dusi, cycling etc. Had his right leg amputated above the knee due to bone cancer. This weekend someone lent him an e-bike(assisted peddling) and he managed to ride properly with a big group of mountainbikers and keep up! Seeing the immense joy he got from this tells me e-bikes have a definite place on our trails.

[Zatopek]

Traffic isn't nearly as large a driver of trail wear as you think it is. It's mainly improper technique and weather. Yeah, okay - more **** riders = more wear, but it's only a portion of the driver ito total trail wear.

 

As for the Maintenance Model, it's perfectly fine at the moment (except at Tokai where there's no money for maintenance thanks to Parks) and Patrick et al do a good job given the amount of trail they need to maintain. IMO they actually do too MUCH maintenance of trail at the moment, especially on trails such as Cobra which run far better when they're open to the elements and not smoothed over every 6 months. The maintenance requirement won't increase as a result of e-bikes being allowed on the trails. What will increase it is excessive rain, wind, bad braking practices (creating ruts) & more distance on the trails. 

 

Still - in response to your assertion of unequal pay for different riders / classes of bikes, it's a solid no. Will your model allow for the extra impact that skinny tyres have due to their smaller contact patches and lower levels of grip (which encourages skidding etc)? Or faster riders? A cost per lap? Per kilogram over a certain level? 

 

No. A single cost per user will always be the best option. 

 

You cant separate improper technique / bad braking practices from traffic volume - they are related.

 

If traffic was as low a driver than you think, then no one would ever complain about trail condition the day after an event with only 1000 riders went over it right? Or Western Cape trail will not deteriorate as fast in the dry summer months when it don't rain.

 

Patrick can do maintenance because trail fees got (substantially) increased to supply a budget - everybody pays equally to make it happen - currently.

 

I did not mention tyre width or rider weight - those will occur on both sides of the fence in equal proportions.

 

The only classification I use in my argument is ebikes - and only because that classification make such a big difference in traffic that you made a post to highlight that difference.

 

Multiply the [small] contribution of traffic to maintenance cost with this big difference that e-bikes make that you pointed out and then it might not so small anymore...

[rorydewet]

You cant separate improper technique / bad braking practices from traffic volume - they are related.

 

If traffic was as low a driver than you think, then no one would ever complain about trail condition the day after an event with only 1000 riders went over it right? Or Western Cape trail will not deteriorate as fast in the dry summer months when it don't rain.

 

Patrick can do maintenance because trail fees got (substantially) increased to supply a budget - everybody pays equally to make it happen - currently.

 

I did not mention tyre width or rider weight - those will occur on both sides of the fence in equal proportions.

 

The only classification I use in my argument is ebikes - and only because that classification make such a big difference in traffic that you made a post to highlight that difference.

 

Multiply the [small] contribution of traffic to maintenance cost with this big difference that e-bikes make that you pointed out and then it might not so small anymore...

so according to you ebikes increase traffic

 

and you anti that

 

i would have thought more people riding was the aim regardless of what they riding

 

so according to your model the less people riding the better?