mid vs Highend Mid vs High end vs Ultra High end

[DR ◣◢]

Rode many a mid range bike and they are great for everything I threw at them.

 

Then I rode my current “super bike”. I know where my money went.

 

It’s definitely not just marketing hype.

[100Tours]

So where is that point of diminishing return? 50K ??

 

This is the question..

 

However it is clearly a relative issue, and probably the answer is to work out for yourself what you are comfortable with,

 

Personally I will spend up to R40k on a bike (I don't tend to buy new bikes). I can't come to terms with riding a R70k machine. I do have a lot of bikes however. If you are racing in the A bunch you'd probably justify that 70k bike, and seemingly marginal gains become more meaningful at higher levels.

 

The logic is something like this - 

1. You can get most everything you might be after, although carbon wheelsets seem to be mostly out of reach at this price point. But electronics are do-able. My usual balance is something like R15-20k for a frame, R10-12k for a groupset and R5-8k for wheels.

2. There is generally a decent resale market at this point - you may struggle to resell a second hand bike at R80k-R100k, but you'll find a very active market at the R25k-R30k level.

3. The price range seems to line up with the most durable equipment choices. Expensive equiment that breaks is even more expensive. 

 

To quote a friend - 'The better I get, the higher I realise the ceiling actually is..'

Edited August 31, 2020 by 100Tours

[Jewbacca]

There is no price..

 

I have ridden and finished in A batch on a sub 10k bike. Oli Munnik has ridden circles around 150k bikes on a sub 20k bike at Epic and the same rubbish bike sans dropper at SA enduro champs..

 

There are plenty of examples where guys on cheap bikes consistently out perform guys on expensive bikes.

 

Is there a happy medium, probably, but I don't know if you can put a value on that. It's different for everyone.

 

An SLX drivetrain these days is exponentially better than XTR was 6 years ago. I wouldn't sneeze at most things these days with the trickle down technology as it is.

 

In SA we are super hung up about kit (I am also somewhat guilty) and less so about actually pushing our riding. 

 

The number of over kitted people across all bike genres is huge. Our pretty moderate climate also allows us to ride most of the year without wrecking our kit, which also plays a part.

 

When I raced CX in Europe I quickly got over my bike part snobbery. That mud cuts through bike parts like butter. Cheap replacement bits, functional and reliable. 

 

I still use 10 speed road and MTB parts. They work, I have them and replacing them won't make me faster. If I am faster, is the cost relatable to said percentage gains?

 

I suppose my point is, mid range bikes are currently epic. That 'budget trail bike for 35k shoot out' thread just shows you that you can get a current, very well specced and very well performing bike for 30-35k which will shred way beyond most of our skill set forever

[Jbr]

There is no price..

 

I have ridden and finished in A batch on a sub 10k bike. Oli Munnik has ridden circles around 150k bikes on a sub 20k bike at Epic and the same rubbish bike sans dropper at SA enduro champs..

 

There are plenty of examples where guys on cheap bikes consistently out perform guys on expensive bikes.

The question isn't "can a good rider with a *** bike outperform a *** rider on a good bike" though...

 

I have sold my 2015 Vipa (which was not a bad bike to start with) and replaced it with a 2019 scalpel hi-mod worth 4 times the price, and from day one I started destroying every PRs both uphills and downhills. So no, the rider isn't everything, and it's not just marketing. The bikes are making progress. The question is are you riding for fun or to race.

 

But I do get your point, most of the racers I know aren't racing 150k bikes, and most 150k bikes I see are usually raced by not so serious people, just people who have a lot of cash and love beautiful toys. Nothing wrong at all, we need them so we can buy those beauties a couple years later for half the price

Edited August 31, 2020 by Jbr

[Jewbacca]

The question isn't "can a good rider with a *** bike outperform a *** rider on a good bike" though...

 

I have sold my 2015 Vipa (which was not a bad bike to start with) and replaced it with a 2019 scalpel hi-mod worth 4 times the price, and from day one I started destroying every PRs both uphills and downhills. So no, the rider isn't everything, and it's not just marketing. The bikes are making progress. The question is are you riding for fun or to race.

 

But I do get your point, most of the racers I know aren't racing 150k bikes, and most 150k bikes I see are usually raced by not so serious people, just people who have a lot of cash and love beautiful toys. Nothing wrong at all, we need them so we can buy those beauties a couple years later for half the price

I don't race bikes anymore, but I consistently beat guys who have coaches, power meters, training programs and better bikes.

 

Also, 2015 Vipa had pretty terrible geometry to be fair. This also touches my point that 6 year old tech is out performed by new tech through trickle down and general industry improvements.

 

So take your initial question and rather say 'can a good rider on a mid range bike, compete with a mid range rider on a super bike better than he could have 6 years ago' and I think you will have the question and probably the answer to the OP's question.

[Wayne pudding Mol]

Ride what you want as long as you can afford it, it hurts no one if you have a superbike

 

I feel the same way about cars as some here feel about bikes - my car is worth less than half my gravel bike.  I'm a decent driver having done many courses and raced.  I'm a fairly average to cr@p rider with top tier bikes

 

Nice bikes are way cheaper than nice cars.  Nice bikes are way way way way cheaper than kids

 

You can feel a difference on a top tier bike for sure - worth it?  Not so much but it's a personal choice and it's nice to work for something and then get it.

 

Jewie will still beat me on a BMX 

[gummibear]

Sounds like it's made from old water pipes.

[GuyKilfoil]

This is an interesting topic and I will give my relatively inexperienced two cents based on my most recent bike purchase. It's a road example but it bears reference.

 

My business sponsored a local cycling retailer for about 18 months (middle of 2018 to Feb 2020) and part of the deal was a loan bike (a very well known American top-end brand) for yours truly. It was a beaut and had a retail value of R146,000 at the time. Highest grade of carbon everything, SRAM Red ETap, and a weight of 7.2kg for a size 58cm with cages, pedals and Garmin mount. It was a superbike (admittedly one generation old - the newer model had already been launched) in every sense of the word. I did about 5,800km on the bike in 18 months (over and above my MTB and KICKR mileage).

 

When the contract ended I wanted to buy it but the price was way out of kilter with market value (and beyond what I could afford) and instead I bought  a lower mid-range (but latest model) carbon race bike from a rival American manufacturer. The bike had a retail value of R50k and runs a mix of mechanical Ultegra (groupo, calipers) and 105 (Cassette and disc rotors), has own-brand carbon wheels, and weighs nearly 1.2kg more in the same trim and the same size. I've done 933km on the bike so far according to Strava...and there's not a local segment PR that belongs to the old bike. I promise I'm not a lot fitter either (about 8% fitter in the last year if Strava's metric is correct). 

 

Perhaps the new bike suits my riding style better. Perhaps I'm still in that new bike honeymoon period where it feels like you have an extra 20W every time you take the bike out. Based on this experience, I definitely can't justify the price of the top end bikes based on performance. But that doesn't mean I don't still want one. I just can't justify it at my current bank account levels.

[LazyTrailRider]

What most people have said here holds true.

 

I've had all manner of bikes since I started riding 30 years ago, from complete entry-level to full-on superbike.

 

My most recent switch was from a superbike with XX1-everything (RRP before the next-gen bike debuted was +-R140k) to an expert-level bike running a GX-based mix of components with an RRP of R93k. I tracked down a demo model and paid R70k for it.

 

Did I feel like I was missing out on something when I got onto the R70k bike? Yes, I did, but the specifics are important here:

• The brakes (Guide R) ran on bushings and creaked when they got dusty. I was used to Guide RS Carbons which ran on sealed bearings and definitely feel way smoother as a result. Solution? Get a set of Code RSCs for R8k.
• The stem and alloy bar combo just didn't feel all that special. Solution? Get a new Lyne AMP stem and carbon bar for R1.5k (amazing value, BTW).
• The shift and dropper levers look and feel plasticky compared to the carbon and machined versions on the superbike. Meh. It bothered me at first, but after a few weeks it didn't anymore.
• No, GX does not shift quite as smoothly and crisply as XX1 does. It's probably only a 5-10% difference, but the difference is there.

Bottom line? If money was no object, I'd buy a superbike again, they really are nice. The sensible me however knows that one or two steps down with careful speccing can be pretty close, close enough that the numbers just cannot possibly go towards the superbike without throwing logic out the door.

Edited September 2, 2020 by LazyTrailRider

[Vroetelvarkie]

One thing no one mentioned yet, and I think is also a factor, same reason why motorvehicles is much more expensive in RSA than in Europe for example and that is financing options and structures. 

 

Very easy to get finance, pay ridiculous interest rates but the installment is manageable. Very few people does the calc to see how much interest they pay over the period. 

 

So due to this option, they are paying more, buying items for a higher price, and so suppliers keeps on lifting prices...

 

My 2 cents and some change

[Grease_Monkey]

So where is that point of diminishing return? 50K ??

 

 

Maybe 3 years ago... I would put it at 100k now. 

 

For me, top tier suspension and brakes are worth the money. Mid to high end wheels also worth it. Carbon frames - meh... Groupsets - XT or GX (I love higher end, but it's not worth the money). 

 

That sort of bike is going for 90k+ now, so if I was buying a complete bike that is where my money would be. 

[stefmeister]

So where is that point of diminishing return? 50K ??

 

I was going to mention the point of diminishing return is a bit subjective.

Seeing as each upgrade generally comes with a weight reduction, it pretty much comes down to how much value you add to it.

Is a 100 g worth R10k?

Can you really feel the difference between a RS Select and RS Ultimate damper?

Apart from a few grams, is there really such a big difference between XT/XO and XTR/XX1?

Is any of the above going to make you a better or faster rider?

[TheoG]

Sensible weight savings are always worth it.  I recently discovered a crap load of old dry sealant in my tyres, about 300g of it.

 

Previous owner probably kept on adding sealant without cleaning it out.

 

Also I got a set of almost new conti's to replace my crossmarks, total weight saving ~700g

 

It made a massive difference on my avg speed and it only cost R600 in total.

 

Spending R5 - R10k to gain 100 gram or so is simply ridiculous unless your a pro and get sponsored or perhaps you are a rich dumbass ...  

[Steven Knoetze (sk27)]

Rode many a mid range bike and they are great for everything I threw at them.

 

Then I rode my current “super bike”. I know where my money went.

 

It’s definitely not just marketing hype.

 

Have to agree, a well thought out and specced bike for your specific use is money well spent.

Just don't expect to get even close to half of that expense back!!!

[Pure Savage]

What I dont understand, people buy a R150k road bike and then dont slam the stem?

[Jewbacca]

What I dont understand, people buy a R150k road bike and then dont slam the stem?

They have back problems from sitting at a desk working hard too long!