Motorists vs Cyclists.... again

[Emuraan Hendricks]

I was with the bunch. Injured Cyclist at Chris Barnard hospital (hopefully out of the woods now). Prayers go out to him. Guys please please please be careful the next 2 weekends. Roads are are busy with the last rides you want to get in. 

Good luck guys and please be safe on roads. 

Don't want to sound like a nag but there are cyclists who ride through red traffic lights and there's a bad stigma attached. Sorry for the mourn.

[Shebeen]

50 minutes ago, Skubarra said:

With re to cycling on passes like Franschoek & Chappies I am with @DieselnDust  I get uncomfortable when we reinforce the idea amongst ourselves that we are lesser road users that should avoid certain roads purely because by being there is asking for trouble. To a large extent you can apply that "rule" to any public road

is riding Chappies too risky to consider??

according to strava, 2500+ logged rides just during the month of february going south bound like this incident.

https://www.strava.com/segments/3211261 

 

I'll take those odds.

[Duane_Bosch]

14 minutes ago, Andymann said:

And to be fair - those that know their bikes, a Hyosung GT650R is at best a spirited commuter bike. It's hardly a bike that only comes alive at 180kph. 

THAAT's what it is. I was going to say it looks like a Suzuki SV 650. Most certainly not a superbike.

Edited February 19, 2024 by Duane_Bosch

[lechatnoir]

1 hour ago, Skubarra said:

With re to cycling on passes like Franschoek & Chappies I am with @DieselnDust  I get uncomfortable when we reinforce the idea amongst ourselves that we are lesser road users that should avoid certain roads purely because by being there is asking for trouble. To a large extent you can apply that "rule" to any public road

You're spot-on.

On the other hand, when I get invited to ride those roads, my consideration is that I can't face it at all. I get the 'reclaiming spaces' thing, but I guess I'm too afraid. But kudos to those who aren't and can cope with all that comes with riding on those roads.

[Oli4]

3 hours ago, 117 said:

To add some info: I'm on a biker group that has a connection to the rider that hit the cyclist. 

Want to sit down quickly?

The rider was at the back of a group of riders and was on the outside of the lane close to the white line

He was not overtaking on a blind corner as thought and has a few car driver witnesses to back it up. 

The cyclist (ebiker) was the one that cut the corner into the oncoming traffic and impacted the side of the biker as shown in that one photo. 

That to me makes sense, juding by the impact on the right side on the motorbike and where the bicycle ended up. If the biker was on the oncoming side that ebiker cyclist would be swimming instead.

Help was given to the cyclist but the cyclists' group thought it to be better to verbally climb into the lone biker instead of helping their fallen pal. I hear the cyclist was concused and is now in icu for standard check ups

Please don't jump on your high horse at me, rather keep your emotional reply at me at bay, im merely passing on information that i find to be factual

I was 1 or 2 minutes behind the accident yesterday morning. Your group of bikers are talking utter sh!t and there is nothing factual about their story. They were speeding BIG BIG time when they passed us, swerving across the lanes. Accident absolutely bound to happen - and it happened a few minutes later. They all belong to jail - no exception.

Chappies is a narrow road - but if everybody adheres to the speed limits, runners, cyclists, cars and motorbikes can safely co-exist. If d!pshits are allowed to use it as a race track, you can close it down for all other road users.

[DieselnDust]

3 minutes ago, lechatnoir said:

You're spot-on.

On the other hand, when I get invited to ride those roads, my consideration is that I can't face it at all. I get the 'reclaiming spaces' thing, but I guess I'm too afraid. But kudos to those who aren't and can cope with all that comes with riding on those roads.

Well chappies is a fairly soft target due to the low speed limit and generally touristy vibe, most drivers are moving slowly if somewhat carelessly by mid morning.

its the early morning when the pass is o my used by motor commuters when it’s most dangerous because those drivers are travelling so fast they never see the speed limit sign and everyone thinks they’re Walter Rohl dancing a Lancia S037 in the Monte Carlo rally.

the risks are purely man made leaving any other road user at the mercy of chance because there’s no enforcement and a stupid campaign telling cyclists that they must stay 1m away from motorists…..

[Skubarra]

5 minutes ago, lechatnoir said:

You're spot-on.

On the other hand, when I get invited to ride those roads, my consideration is that I can't face it at all. I get the 'reclaiming spaces' thing, but I guess I'm too afraid. But kudos to those who aren't and can cope with all that comes with riding on those roads.

I get both sides of the argument... Control the risks you can and all that. I daily commute to work by mtb so that I have the option to hop onto the pavement whenever I pick up the vibe that the road is too busy or risky for my liking.

What I won't do is blame (or insinuate) a cyclist that was taken out by a road user riding recklessly/illegally for being irresponsible. I think it is a very unhelpful slippery slope to find ourselves on.

[Graham S]

Clearly not understanding my point. 

If you choose to go to to Afghanistan on holiday and you end up being captured or killed is that considered victim blaming? Surely not since the general concensus is "You shouldnt have been there since everyone knows its dangerous"

Nothing is stopping you from going there, the land itself isnt dangerous, its just the people.....

The road itself isnt dangerous, its just the people using it

So by using a known dangerous section of road you are accepting the consequence of your action.

How is this victim blaming?

You are also putting an assumption on road user to act accordingly. 

The reality is that certain roads are dangerous and you cant rely on all road users to drive and use the road safely.

Putting your safety in other road users hands because "They should drive according to the law and pass when its safe" is pretty stupid tbh.

[117]

28 minutes ago, Oli4 said:

I was 1 or 2 minutes behind the accident yesterday morning. Your group of bikers are talking utter sh!t and there is nothing factual about their story. They were speeding BIG BIG time when they passed us, swerving across the lanes. Accident absolutely bound to happen - and it happened a few minutes later. They all belong to jail - no exception.

Chappies is a narrow road - but if everybody adheres to the speed limits, runners, cyclists, cars and motorbikes can safely co-exist. If d!pshits are allowed to use it as a race track, you can close it down for all other road users.

You clearly didnt read my last paragraph did you? 

Let the authorities sort it out then, yes? 

 

[Shebeen]

22 minutes ago, Graham S said:

Clearly not understanding my point. 

If you choose to go to to Afghanistan on holiday and you end up being captured or killed is that considered victim blaming? Surely not since the general concensus is "You shouldnt have been there since everyone knows its dangerous"

Nothing is stopping you from going there, the land itself isnt dangerous, its just the people.....

The road itself isnt dangerous, its just the people using it

So by using a known dangerous section of road you are accepting the consequence of your action.

How is this victim blaming?

You are also putting an assumption on road user to act accordingly. 

The reality is that certain roads are dangerous and you cant rely on all road users to drive and use the road safely.

Putting your safety in other road users hands because "They should drive according to the law and pass when its safe" is pretty stupid tbh.

https://www.penguintravel.com/Offer/RoundtripsandCulturalTours/1819/WherethePamirsmeettheHinduKush-TajikistanandAfghanistan.html

 

Weird analogy, but hey go for it!

[Graham S]

Just now, Shebeen said:

https://www.penguintravel.com/Offer/RoundtripsandCulturalTours/1819/WherethePamirsmeettheHinduKush-TajikistanandAfghanistan.html

 

Weird analogy, but hey go for it!

Oh sorry i forgot about all the good parts of the country to nullify my argument. 

brb just going to Phillipi Farms to drop off my TV because the guy cant make it to my house and will pay more more for delivery. 

[ChrisF]

1 hour ago, dave303e said:

I must say I saw that picture and thought to myself- rock wall on the left, no yellow lines and a lovely steep drop down to the ocean on the right. I wouldn't be riding there regularly if I didn't need to. Same reason I wouldn't want to ride a motorbike or drive a car there regularly either, just a high risk that really doesn't need to be taken. 

Yes accidents happen on safe roads all the time, but if you look at controlling the controllable, you give yourself that element of a chance by sticking to 'safer roads.' The same way we pick and choose roads to avoid potential bike jackings, work the odds in your favor.

I saw a youtuber the other day let slip that he doesn't ride his garden features daily, he hits those when he needs to film content only, it is just too risky for a daily ride. I was so glad to see it and think we all need that taste of reality.

 

The first time I did Chappies was late afternoon of a weekday.

 

Hardly any cars.

 

All went well until the last bit to the toll booth .... the wind was bad in that spot, I simply had to cycle in the middle of the lane.  Thankfully no cars caught up to me until I passed the toll booth and got out of the wind.

 

For the rest of the trip, as well as the return cycle, cars gave me space.

 

The only danger was the wind.

 

 

The second time I again started from Noordhoek.  I got halve way to the viewing point.  As I came around the "bend" the wind picked up drastically !!!  It simply was not safe to cycle in thos conditions, with a fair number of cars on the route.  I turned around.

 

 

 

Chappies is no more dangerous than any other route we cycle.

 

Weekend racers in cars or on bikes makes ANY road unsafe.

 

 

The extremely high number of cyclists out and about in the lead up to CTCT makes MANY roads in the Western Cape a challange ...

 

[Oli4]

3 minutes ago, 117 said:

You clearly didnt read my last paragraph did you? 

Let the authorities sort it out then, yes? 

 

I read your entire post. I am not sure what you wanted me to do - let you "pass on information that [you] find factual" when it directly contradicts what I witnessed? You were not by the scene. You have nothing "factual". I was there. And I know speeding & reckless driving when I see it. 

When you write "I hear the cyclist was concused and is now in icu for standard check ups", it also contradicts all the information given so far (family and Stay Wider of the Rider).

And no - I don't trust "authorities to sort it out" in SA, especially when the victim is unconscious in ICU and certainly not in a position to lay charges. 

 

[Shebeen]

9 minutes ago, Graham S said:

Oh sorry i forgot about all the good parts of the country to nullify my argument. 

brb just going to Phillipi Farms to drop off my TV because the guy cant make it to my house and will pay more more for delivery. 

You're the one who compared riding on Chapman's peak to a holiday in Afghanistan.

Sure it's a windy twisty road, but I'm not sure it's actually seen as being incredibly dangerous and avoid at all costs? I wouldn't avoid it due to safety reasons.

In fact there's not even a single logged here

 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=10tzB6FghNBHk7dK1SJSG53q6lYk&usp=sharing

 

 

 

[Paul Ruinaard]

4 hours ago, Graham S said:

Being on both sides, cyclist and motorcyclist I have an opinion on each side. 

When I am on my bicycle, on the road (Which is very rare as it find it extremely unsafe) I observe cyclists 90% of the time riding 2, or 3 abrest! without fail or often passing a cyclist ahead and not looking before moving over and going into the road. No shoulder checks...

Guys CYCLING ON THE N1 into town! Yes yes I know that section isnt safe, I've cycled there many times as well. You are taking the risk by riding on the highway to avoid being mugged on the cycle path, I get it. 

Cyclists cycling on roads with a very narrow yellow line, sub 500mm is just asking for trouble. Guys cycling UP and DOWN Franschoek pass which basically has no yellow line is just asking for trouble. YOU are inviting risk into your ride by riding on roads that are unsafe for bicycles. 

Removing the motorcycles racing up and down the pass. There are MASSIVE grain carriers, bakkies towing boats to the dams, car clubs and general traffic. Now add a cyclist to a blind corner with no yellow line and not enough space to pass safely and you are asking for trouble. 

AGAIN: YOU CHOSE TO CYCLE ON AN UNSAFE ROAD.

This applies to Chappies. Its a MASSIVE tourist destination with busses, cars and motorbikes (Yes I acknowledge speeding and over taking blah blah), there is NO SPACE TO CYCLE THERE SAFELY, even if all traffic is obeying the rules of the road, riding a bicycle there is not safe with the amount of traffic that goes through there. 

You accepted the risks when you went on that route, do not expect a cycling utopia just becuse its a popular route. 

On the Motorcycle side.

I've been riding motorbikes on the road and track for a long time. 

Cars dont see you, trucks dont see you, cyclists dont see you. Those roads I mentioned above are just as unsafe for motorcycles as they are for cyclists. 

We accept these risks when using the road. 

Everyone gets sad when a motorcyclist, who is riding normally, gets killed by a car turning or running a red light. But this is part of being on two wheels, bicycle or motorcycle.


Any way, sad day indeed but people only care about their side of the story and want to regulate te opposite.

The cure lies in education and correct training, but we can only dream..

Hmm - having been on bikes and motorbikes for 30 plus years and done my share of knee grinding and stupid breakfast runs i can only say there is an asusmption from 90% of the sports motorcycle riders in South Africa that they are entitled, by virtue of their license fees, to ride way above the legal speed limits and in ways that leave zero room for error. I stepped away from it and went to riding on hte track owing to the fact that theres hard scenery  and oncoming traffic on the road.

This accident is proof of all of this. 

But

Spend a Saturday or Sunday morning on Helshoogte with the bikes going up and down from Stellenbosch side and up Franschoek Pass and you will know that the sports bikers do not give. a toss. Thats a fact for the majority - i know asusmptions are dangerous but you dont buy a sports bike to ride within the speed limit. I was one of them. And a cyclist as well.

I am sorry i dont agree with you when you say you accept the risk when you use the road. Apologies but that is hogwash..You accept that everyone should conduct themslevses accordingly and that one of you is not entitled to place the others at risk.

 

[Graham S]

10 minutes ago, Paul Ruinaard said:

Hmm - having been on bikes and motorbikes for 30 plus years and done my share of knee grinding and stupid breakfast runs i can only say there is an asusmption from 90% of the sports motorcycle riders in South Africa that they are entitled, by virtue of their license fees, to ride way above the legal speed limits and in ways that leave zero room for error. I stepped away from it and went to riding on hte track owing to the fact that theres hard scenery  and oncoming traffic on the road.

This accident is proof of all of this. 

But

Spend a Saturday or Sunday morning on Helshoogte with the bikes going up and down from Stellenbosch side and up Franschoek Pass and you will know that the sports bikers do not give. a toss. Thats a fact for the majority - i know asusmptions are dangerous but you dont buy a sports bike to ride within the speed limit. I was one of them. And a cyclist as well.

I am sorry i dont agree with you when you say you accept the risk when you use the road. Apologies but that is hogwash..You accept that everyone should conduct themslevses accordingly and that one of you is not entitled to place the others at risk.

 

It still comes down to assuming other road users are are going to use the road in a predicatable and lawful way. Sitting back and saying they should conduct themselves accordingly is just ignorant to the reality of our roads.

If a road is known to be used by racers often would you then not come to the conclusion that that section of road is more dangerous than any other "normal" section of road and thus the chance of an incident is higher?

 

Which is my original point.

Ride on known dangerous road = accepting the risk.

You cant fall back on the assumption that road users are going to act accordingly. 

I full agree with you that superbike riders and weekend warriors dont give a **** about the rules of the road and will continue racing up and down hells hoogte, franschoek, rooi els etc. 

My point is that this is the known state of those roads, so cycling there is accepting it.