Damn, Threads get closed down quickly these days!

[SwissVan]

On 9/18/2021 at 5:09 PM, King_Crispy said:

Not a private website, it is accessible by anyone, and is classed as public media. The fact that only "members" may comment is irrelevant. The fact that comments are deleted and opinions are disallowed is not strictly speaking legal.

 

Taken from the Constitution of South Africa:

16. Freedom of expression

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of expression, which includes-

(a) freedom of the press and other media;

(b) freedom to receive or impart information or ideas;

Not to mention that some members pay a fee, myself included....albeit i declined to renew it this year purely because this hub that i have been a member of since +/- 2005 is not the same place it used to be, but that's life...

 

Its life Jim, but not as we know

 

Its the hub Chrispy, but not as we know it

 

 

[OVERDRIVE]

I like the way the site is run. I enjoy myself on the site. At times when we're bored we want topics to go on for entertainment value, and get irritated when they get cut. Its ok to to admit you like seeing posts go down the road ????

[SwissVan]

23 hours ago, OVERDRIVE said:

I like the way the site is run. I enjoy myself on the site. At times when we're bored we want topics to go on for entertainment value, and get irritated when they get cut. Its ok to to admit you like seeing posts go down the road ????

 

Joined January 27 according to your profile

What was your previous hub name(s)?

[DIPSLICK]

I left hub long ago and asked for my account to be locked

many reasons, mostly my perception of the community and the change, and I stopped riding and felt I had nothing to contribute pre the “crash”

I asked via a member to ask Matt  to open my account purely for classifieds

i am a bike whore and I buy much more than my wife knows or much more than I should 

every now and then I look at the topics

mostly race reports, or upcoming events

i know there is a thread ASKING/Begging admin/Matt to open the comments section 

and many Hubbers asking for clear reasoning behind this

im not going to read N questions as to why we can’t comment, and I saw there are a few Hubbers “demanding “ response

my point is , MATT IF YOUR FOCUS IS SALES ????????????????Good for you bud, your pass time became something more, well done 

but if u are genuinely only interested in a sales forum and u don’t care about delicate LITTLE TULIPS FEELINGS WHY THE VAAARK do u not allow comments, I have never bought a vehicle , asset, or used a service provider who didn’t give a **** about LEVEL OF SERVICE PROVIDED 

so,,,, 

Please report my lack of gramma and swearing enough for Matt /admin To tell everyone WTF or maybe I crack a PM /warning,

because I buy a lot and I get great service and great prices and just rating a seller to me feels wrong

its an experience (in my case ???? only been great) but all sales are not created equal

 

 

EVER

proper feedback is essential 

[Mountain Bru]

10 minutes ago, DIPSLICK said:

i know there is a thread ASKING/Begging admin/Matt to open the comments section 

This thread basically is the hub now. 

If you need help with something, need to pass some time having a chuckle, or actually want to learn something about a bike, this is the place to do it. 

Some of the funniest post's I've seen on this site have been there, and surprisingly I've even learnt some cool stuff from other guys (Why Cotic put brakes on the right fork leg as an example)

It's basically the final fortress of the community minded hubbers. 

[Jewbacca]

The 'old hub' was not a good place all the time. There were threads there that were embarrassing. If peoples mothers and wives were to read some of what was said they would likely not be thrilled.

As things evolve, what is acceptable and more importantly, what company owners want to be associated with, have to evolve too. 

I know that it is human nature to remember things romantically, but if we are honest with ourselves we have to admit that a lot of the 'old hub' was bullying, pretty crude, unwelcoming and often resembled a 'boys club' in so many ways, most not positive.

I never really strayed into chit chat or too many heated areas as I don't want to be associated with that stuff. I am here for the cycling part and the classifieds. When I want to talk smut I tend to prefer to do it with people I know, not on a public platform that represents someone elses livelihood. 

[DIPSLICK]

I’m not asking for “old” hub

i agree and agree to disagree 

 

but I do feel feedback is essential 

and as a service provider I only see the positives 

[DIPSLICK]

5 minutes ago, Mountain Bru said:

This thread basically is the hub now. 

If you need help with something, need to pass some time having a chuckle, or actually want to learn something about a bike, this is the place to do it. 

Some of the funniest post's I've seen on this site have been there, and surprisingly I've even learnt some cool stuff from other guys (Why Cotic put brakes on the right fork leg as an example)

It's basically the final fortress of the community minded hubbers. 

I hear u and u right, but BUYERS AND SELLERS will never 

a)find the discussion 

b) understand the innuendo 

c) give a vaaaark what random people are saying VIA VIA 

not a direct sale/purchase agreement 

[Hairy]

14 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

The 'old hub' was not a good place all the time. There were threads there that were embarrassing. If peoples mothers and wives were to read some of what was said they would likely not be thrilled.

As things evolve, what is acceptable and more importantly, what company owners want to be associated with, have to evolve too. 

I know that it is human nature to remember things romantically, but if we are honest with ourselves we have to admit that a lot of the 'old hub' was bullying, pretty crude, unwelcoming and often resembled a 'boys club' in so many ways, most not positive.

I never really strayed into chit chat or too many heated areas as I don't want to be associated with that stuff. I am here for the cycling part and the classifieds. When I want to talk smut I tend to prefer to do it with people I know, not on a public platform that represents someone elses livelihood. 

Not all the old stuff, or the manner in which people communicated their feelings / thoughts / whatevers was good for either Bikehub or cycling really as a whole.

But not all was bad, there was also a good bit of good.

If only people could comment on the adds.

Speaking for myself, my comments are honestly meant for the good of the buyer or seller. There have been, currently are and will be future ads that are poor, incorrect or just a blatant mess.

[Mountain Bru]

On 9/19/2021 at 4:40 PM, Nick said:

We've asked for Forum discussions to talk about bikes. There are still some Off Topic discussion for the fluffier, less controversial topics. The threads we've closed have been beaten worse than a dead horse, adding zero value beyond frivolous entertainment for some. That's not an over the top expectation from a cycling Forum.

We don't need any reminding where Bike Hub has come from. Surprise, we were there too. But in the past, we've been slack at moderating. This approach allowed a lot of things that are unacceptable to happen including many things we've been embarrassed to have attached to Bike Hub. It's not the vision we had for the website and we're paying for it by trying to correct that course now. We put a lot of ourselves into maintaining and building it. We want to be able to take pride in the content it hosts.

In the process, we're going break some segments of the community and lose people. We've come to terms with that. If you want to have constructive conversations about cycling, then Bike Hub is the place. There is still lots of value in that. If you want somewhere to fill your day with locker room shenanigans and banter with the lads, it is probably no longer that place. And again, I think that's a reasonable expectation for a cycling Forum. Who knows, it might even make the community more welcoming and inclusive, and more popular than ever as a resource for cyclists. It also might not but at least we tried.

And you are right. If Bike Hub were the forums alone, the servers would have been turned off years ago. The 'evils' of the Classifieds keep the lights on but we do see the value in the Forums beyond just the bottom line. This year alone we dedicated a couple months of development time (this means salaries and neglecting work on profitable projects) to upgrading the platform. It was a massive project and took a huge effort from the team. We did this because we still see the value that the forums add. To then hear that we've turned our back on it is a little grating.

The Classifieds is thriving and we get feedback daily from those using it (spoiler: it's largely positive). We're really happy with it. Maybe there aren't as many bargains anymore but what's happening is not solely symptoms of the changes we've made. Cycling in South Africa has changed immensely since Bike Hub started and we'd like Bike Hub to remain relevant and be a part of it.

To respond to this properly (in a honest, not sarcastic tone): 

I think there are a few different kind of threads that were on "le hub", and some were definitely not lekker and I'm glad they're gone. I don't think I've ever heard anyone advocating for the return of a "girls on bikes" thread. I've also never read anyone advocating for swearing to be allowed on the site, or for the allowance of racism, or sexism, or misogyny, or any other talk that typically wouldn't be acceptable at a workplace coffee table. I'm sure you have 99.9% backing in shutting the threads down were that was the theme or focus of the thread. 

But then there are other threads that are about current affairs for example that are the kind of thing on everyone's mind, and that people want to talk about. This would be the same at dinner with friends, having coffee with a co-worker, or with a stranger you just met at a braai. Yes, the forum is primarily a cycling forum, but we're humans, not just cyclists, and even among fellow cyclists, other topics are discussed. If this is a community of "internet friends", then it stands to reason that such topics would arise and be discussed amongst each other. For example, I found incredible value in the Coronavirus thread at the start of the pandemic. It has nothing to do with cycling, but I would have been worse off without it. Those non cycling related (NCR) threads tie the community together too, not just the cycling related ones. Taking them away is taking away more than just some meaningless chatter. It's creating a restrictive environment where free speech is not allowed.

I'm not talking about the law or the constitution when I say free speech though. I more mean that you've created an environment where someone else tells you what you're allowed to talk about and what you're allowed to say. If I was your employee, or if this was some kind of cult that I knowingly joined, I might feel differently about that situation, but my approach to BikeHub is to see it as a community of fellow cyclists. Maybe that's the wrong approach according to your vision for the site, but for as long as that's the expectation coming in, it's going to be incredibly jarring when someone tells you "you're not allowed to talk about that topic" or "this discussion is over" by just closing a thread or deleting messages, or changing your words, or deleting threads that people are actively participating in (yes, those all happen). And that's not limited to NCR threads. If you decided that the new Giant Anthem thread, or a upcoming race thread, needed to be closed, I'd feel equally aggravated. The issue isn't the actual threads being closed, it's the feeling of being controlled and told what you're allowed to talk about like you're in kindergarten.

I'm sorry you find my comments grating though. If you read again, you'll see I didn't say you've turned your back on the forums, I said you've turned your back on the community in favour of keeping the "classifieds only" users happy. In my mind, a "classifieds only" user isn't really part of the bikehub community, in much the same way that I don't believe everyone selling washing machines on OLX is part of a "washing machine community" there. Some guys clearly don't even cycle and are buying and selling stuff on the classifieds just as a way to make money off the cycling community.  

On 9/19/2021 at 3:38 PM, Mountain Bru said:

The admins have clearly now decided to turn their back on that community in favour of keeping the "classifieds only" users happy

You even alluded to this yourself in saying that the classifieds are what keep the lights on, and without them, the site wouldn't exist. I really understand the need to protect your revenue stream, and that's the classifieds users. It is however clear for everyone to see and enjoy the upgrades done to the site, and the much improved interface etc (and I'm sure everyone is grateful). But as you said "we did this because we see the value that the forums add". But saying the forums add value is not synonymous with saying the BikeHub community ads value in my opinion.

The forums are just a place where the community can interact. You can have the best forum interface, but if your members or community has left or moved on, that interface is worthless. Saying the community must now be happy because you upgraded the interface or worked on the backend of the forums is the equivalent of your boss at work ignoring all your requests for the stuff that matters to you, and then giving you a new laptop you didn't ask for and telling you to be happy, and then being upset when you still complain that the aircon doesn't work, you don't have half the tools you need to do your job, you have unrealistic deadlines to meet and your salary isn't being paid on time. Yes, a new laptop is nice, but I'd rather have the old one and get paid on time. Yes, the new interface and improvements are nice, but I'd rather have non-cycling related threads on the site, comments on the classifieds, and for threads to not be closed every time the admins decide the conversation isn't valuable enough or is maybe not going in a direction they like. As was stated by someone else, there might be some bad eggs commenting here and there. Punish the bad eggs, don't give up baking the cake. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mountain Bru
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[Mountain Bru]

57 minutes ago, Hairy said:

If only people could comment on the adds.

I

[patches]

4 hours ago, Hairy said:

Not all the old stuff, or the manner in which people communicated their feelings / thoughts / whatevers was good for either Bikehub or cycling really as a whole.

But not all was bad, there was also a good bit of good.

If only people could comment on the adds.

Speaking for myself, my comments are honestly meant for the good of the buyer or seller. There have been, currently are and will be future ads that are poor, incorrect or just a blatant mess.

I have an idea!

An idea on how to allow "comments" but also not give trolls a platform to derail a sale.

It's simple. A "Questions and Answers" format on items listed.

If a potential buyer has a question/comment, they post it there. ONLY the seller sees that question/comment UNTIL they respond to it. Once they respond the question/comment and answer become visible to all.

This allows a seller to have some control over those trying to tank their sale with comments like "I can get a new one for cheaper" etc. All the seller has to do is simply ignore the potential buyer so that any disingenuous remarks never see the light of day.

Apologies if such a suggestion has already been hashed out in the Classifieds-Comments thread.

 

[Wayne Potgieter]

3 hours ago, patches said:

I have an idea!

An idea on how to allow "comments" but also not give trolls a platform to derail a sale.

It's simple. A "Questions and Answers" format on items listed.

If a potential buyer has a question/comment, they post it there. ONLY the seller sees that question/comment UNTIL they respond to it. Once they respond the question/comment and answer become visible to all.

This allows a seller to have some control over those trying to tank their sale with comments like "I can get a new one for cheaper" etc. All the seller has to do is simply ignore the potential buyer so that any disingenuous remarks never see the light of day.

Apologies if such a suggestion has already been hashed out in the Classifieds-Comments thread.

 

There is a popular classifieds site in NZ that does this and it works really well.

[Eldron]

I just had a quick look and there are multiple threads on F1, cricket, rugby, veganism and a host of other NCR stuff.

What rights are people moaning about?

You can happily post NCR stuff.  Your human rights are not being trampled on. It seems the only rights being trampled on are your rights to be a knob.

[patches]

2 hours ago, Wayne Potgieter said:

There is a popular classifieds site in NZ that does this and it works really well.

hahaha, busted! The idea isn't unique... or mine.

But yeah, for a start-up with just 20 users (1999), to a business that sold for $750m just 7 years later and is now worth over $2.5bn. Something must work.

[Trashy]

My suggestion would be to make commenting on the classifieds a BikeHub plus member privilege. I would gladly pay for that, it would place a barrier on any random being a chop and any transgressors would have financial loss if their paid account is banned for stupid comments.