Ironman & Ironman70.3 PE, South Africa 2023

[shaper]

5 hours ago, TurkeyFarmer said:

So many keyboard warriors here, while hardly any "regular" hubbers could have even been bothered to take part or even just go to spectate.

At 05:00 the weather was appalling, thunder, lightning, lots of wind. The organizers had to make a call. Delaying by anything more would ha e made it impossible to finish by midnight, which is a hard cut off they face from the city.

I am nursing a torn rotator cuff, so had to sit it out, but was the first time spectating in years, and I take my hat off to the organizers and volunteers. They put on an incredible event, in sometimes very trying conditions. 

 

No one I spoke to was upset about a shortened swim, that's including rank amateurs just out there to finish, as well as two age group winners I spoke to. My better half put in an amazing effort to finish her first, and definitely not last 70.3, and I was on the sidelines with major fomo all day, but can only sing the praises of the organizers.

I  can understand 70.3 athletes being confused about the shortened swim, but those that saw the conditions 90 minutes prior to the IM elite men's start, definitely weren't.

Besides, the lifeguards had already brought the for bouys back in by the time the event started, so even though the conditions cleared, it was too late to revert back to a full swim.

But I'm sure glad to see all the armchair bandits who were probably still snug in bed 500-1000km away from Hobie Beach know better.

 

Maybe the bike event organizers, who can't even seem to be bothered with arranging proper road/lane closures anymore, should take some notes from IM about just how one should go about organising truly world class events. That said, I do think there is some merit in reconsidering the time of year for the SA events, and I think they would do themselves a favor if they drop the Durban event completely.

Before you start putting people in boxes as keyboard worriers, as a coach I had 5 athletes racing the 70.3 and 1 doing the full.  I also had people on the ground there giving regular feedback, so know what the conditions were at the start and also having prior raced there myself.  I have also raced in worse conditions without the swim being shortened.  As well as raced the full there in 2017/2018 and raced World Champs 70.3 there in 2018 and did the inaugural 70.3NMB last year.  

Having spoken to all my athletes post race.  All said the swim was fine and surprised that it was shortened, especially as the 70.3 were only swimming nearly 2 hours after the pro's started.   Some did mention that there seemed to be an undercurrent in the water and if you stopped swimming you drifted, but swimming at the surface was not and issue and everyone commented post race that the  current helped them all set good swim times. Faster min/100m pace than they have ever done in training.

So your zero experience of doing such an event and only being there as a spectator worrying about your better half doing her first does not make you any better than what you deemed to keyboard worriers who have raced these events and participated in much worse condition and as I said, I had people on the ground looking after athletes and giving feedback as well as considering the wellbeing of my athletes.

As for time of year, this event has moved in date quite a few times since the last full swim in 2018.  Last year it was on 03 April 2023. and this year a full month earlier.  As the local say, you can swim 360 of 365 days in PE, seems that Ironman always seem to get the 5 days when you cannot.  Funny that.

Personally and as others state the call was made to quickly and it will have a big negative effect on the event going forward especially with attracting international athletes.  Considering the low numbers for the full, it could well be the death of the full and we are left with three 70.3 races and if you want to do a full you will have to travel overseas.

Edited March 7, 2023 by shaper

[Turkey Farmer]

30 minutes ago, shaper said:

Before you start putting people in boxes as keyboard worriers, as a coach I had 5 athletes racing the 70.3 and 1 doing the full.  I also had people on the ground there giving regular feedback, so know what the conditions were at the start and also having prior raced there myself.  I have also raced in worse conditions without the swim being shortened.  As well as raced the full there in 2017/2018 and raced World Champs 70.3 there in 2018 and did the inaugural 70.3NMB last year.  

Having spoken to all my athletes post race.  All said the swim was fine and surprised that it was shortened, especially as the 70.3 were only swimming nearly 2 hours after the pro's started.   Some did mention that there seemed to be an undercurrent in the water and if you stopped swimming you drifted, but swimming at the surface was not and issue and everyone commented post race that the  current helped them all set good swim times. Faster min/100m pace than they have ever done in training.

So your zero experience of doing such an event and only being there as a spectator worrying about your better half doing her first does not make you any better than what you deemed to keyboard worriers who have raced these events and participated in much worse condition and as I said, I had people on the ground looking after athletes and giving feedback as well as considering the wellbeing of my athletes.

As for time of year, this event has moved in date quite a few times since the last full swim in 2018.  Last year it was on 03 April 2023. and this year a full month earlier.  As the local say, you can swim 360 of 365 days in PE, seems that Ironman always seem to get the 5 days when you cannot.  Funny that.

Personally and as others state the call was made to quickly and it will have a big negative effect on the event going forward especially with attracting international athletes.  Considering the low numbers for the full, it could well be the death of the full and we are left with three 70.3 races and if you want to do a full you will have to travel overseas.

Where did I say I had zero experience. I said I sat this one out because I am nursing an injury. Have competed there a number of times. I was registered, but chose not to start, based on my physios recommendation. This would have been my 9th 70.3, and my third IM event in PE

I was not relying on people on the ground to give me feedback, I was there. The weather was really bad earlier in the morning, and when we went into transition early morning to rack bottles, we were thinking the swim might be cancelled completely. You cant with a clear conscious send hundreds of people into a ocean swim with lightning striking, that is insanity. The call was made, and the start delayed. Maybe they were a bit premature making the call, but it is what it is. By the time the 70.3 start took place, the weather had pretty much completely cleared, but the event was already delayed, and the bouys were out the water, so it was too late to reverse it. 

All in, was a great event weekend, and the gees in PE was as good as ever.  Had major FOMO, and look forward to being back next year. 

 

But I am here for to look for deals on the marketplace, I should have known better than to actually engage with the forum side of things. The negativity and expert opinions of a bunch of people who weren’t there and have no intention of taking part in the future either just struck a nerve, after having a great weekend in PE.  As you were

Edited March 7, 2023 by TurkeyFarmer

[shaper]

15 minutes ago, TurkeyFarmer said:

Where did I say I had zero experience. I said I sat this one out because I am nursing an injury. Have competed there a number of times. I was registered, but chose not to start, based on my physios recommendation. This would have been my 9th 70.3, and my third IM event in PE

I was not relying on people on the ground to give me feedback, I was there. The weather was really bad earlier in the morning, and when we went into transition early morning to rack bottles, we were thinking the swim might be cancelled completely. You cant with a clear conscious send hundreds of people into a ocean swim with lightning striking, that is insanity. The call was made, and the start delayed. Maybe they were a bit premature making the call, but it is what it is. By the time the 70.3 start took place, the weather had pretty much completely cleared, but the event was already delayed, and the bouys were out the water, so it was too late to reverse it. 

All in, was a great event weekend, and the gees in PE was as good as ever.  Had major FOMO, and look forward to being back next year. 

 

But I am here for to look for deals on the marketplace, I should have known better than to actually engage with the forum side of things. The negativity and expert opinions of a bunch of people who weren’t there and have no intention of taking part in the future either just struck a nerve, after having a great weekend in PE.  As you were

You should have left it before amending your reply, you do not know people's intention and what races they will be participating in and to what level.  So do not tar everyone with the same brush just because you got emotional.  Many here speak from experience, will likely race this if not other races, but if the scenario by IM for this race and for others around the world is to dumb down and be over cautious in shortening or canceling swims then it will impact negatively on future races.  There has already been a massive decrease in the number of internationals racing IMSA as each year since 2018 the swim has been affected and thus will be further undermined by the Protrinews podcast I highlighted earlier who give a negative view on the race which is listened to by quite a following internationally.

[Shebeen]

16 hours ago, IceCreamMan said:

Ridiculous maybe.

spot the risks and wait for the penny to drop.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_triathlon_fatalities

I'll double down, wasn't Ironman supposed to be hard? What you're suggesting here is that the event should be made to accommodate weaker athletes? If you're a poor swimmer then you should work on improving it the most, that much is obvious.

That wiki list is long, but there are plenty of people doing a triathlon every weekend, so I could probably beat it with the lawn bowls list. I see the only records of local fatalities on the list happened 4 times at the 70.3 in Cape town (which doesn't exist to my knowledge, so the list is a nice if not reliable source of info). People die doing the Argus, mostly from cardiac issues but also blunt force trauma from crashing, there is very little extra the organisers can do to prevent this.

 

I'd rate the fatalities one can square at the organisers

- bike collisions with vehicles/objects on a course that should be closed

- drowning due to overcrowding/inadequate water safety

 - cardiac arrest/heart attack, very grey area as in some cases the medical team could have been unprepared and slow to react

 

The rest lies squarely on the person entering the event. Arrive in a physical condition to finish, if you don't have the stamina or skill set to complete the course safely then don't shift the blame to the organisers. the fact that IMSA is getting a stigma for shortening the swim either means they have a crap swim venue or are a bunch of pansies scared to push the limits a little bit.

[IceCreamMan]

Just now, Shebeen said:

I'll double down, wasn't Ironman supposed to be hard? What you're suggesting here is that the event should be made to accommodate weaker athletes? If you're a poor swimmer then you should work on improving it the most, that much is obvious.

That wiki list is long, but there are plenty of people doing a triathlon every weekend, so I could probably beat it with the lawn bowls list. I see the only records of local fatalities on the list happened 4 times at the 70.3 in Cape town (which doesn't exist to my knowledge, so the list is a nice if not reliable source of info). People die doing the Argus, mostly from cardiac issues but also blunt force trauma from crashing, there is very little extra the organisers can do to prevent this.

 

I'd rate the fatalities one can square at the organisers

- bike collisions with vehicles/objects on a course that should be closed

- drowning due to overcrowding/inadequate water safety

 - cardiac arrest/heart attack, very grey area as in some cases the medical team could have been unprepared and slow to react

 

The rest lies squarely on the person entering the event. Arrive in a physical condition to finish, if you don't have the stamina or skill set to complete the course safely then don't shift the blame to the organisers. the fact that IMSA is getting a stigma for shortening the swim either means they have a crap swim venue or are a bunch of pansies scared to push the limits a little bit.

All valid points and yes, Ironman is meant to be a challenge. No argument from me on that score. 
 

The wiki list points to the fact that the swim is the riskiest of the 3 by a statistical long long way. I suspect a lot of the fatalities on the swim is due to apprehension and the body’s response as a contributing factor. 
 

It certainly does not devalue my achievement of completing Ironman because a swim is shortened due to circumstances that the organisers deemed unsafe or too risky. There has to be a level of acceptable risk and we have to leave that up to the organisers on the day who take all variables into account. No one wants a fatality during an event. I don’t look down at an athlete who finished an Ironman event that had a shortened swim. They have my respect.  Like every other Ironman out there. 

maybe the organisers are risk verse, err on the side of caution. This may be valid point. We don’t have all the facts. What we do know is that there was a storm that delayed proceedings and we do know the course has to be handed back to the city at some point. Cycling course earlier than the running course. To think the organisers take these decisions lightly is wrong in my opinion. 
 

[Andrew Steer]

3 hours ago, dave303e said:

ok- what they don't say in that table is that they must be ASA or other running governing body events. Ruling out trail running.

Also take and event like Kaapsehoop marathon, which can count as your qualifier. You can probably trip on your laces and roll down the hill to the finish and still qualify. The route drops nearly 1km over the 42km, basically it is down the escarpment all the way to Nelspruit with a slight speedbump near the end. The route literally could not count as a world record because it is too easy. Because it has a massive elevation net loss, and is a point to point race where the start is more than 50% of the distance away from the finish. So the easiest marathon ever can count, but all 100Milers do not count because they are not ASA affiliated. This is not merit based qualifications in my opinion.

That was kinda what I was trying to say in my initial post which kicked it all off a bit. My thought was just try massage the dates or locations to make it a more consistent event. It would also make the organisers lives a bit easier long term and safer for the team in general. Nevermind the athletes, the poor lifeguards in the water taking in buoys and setting them out, boats etc.

I always do wonder why there is this massive resentment towards the road running scene from Trail runners... I do both, enjoy both and am equally useless at both, but I clearly missed the secret handshake or blood oath somewhere along the line.

Yes ASA are pretty useless, as per pretty much all government linked entities, but a license for the year is small fry (R120) in the grand scheme of things and we've got the most incredible and well supported calendar and some truly world class events. Clubs organize races, keeping entry costs lower, giving everyone access to safe, supported runs - then those race fees build the clubs up, allowing them to support their more talented runners, creating a strong local running scene and a wonderful diverse and inclusive running culture.

And where road running is a million miles ahead of trail, is exactly in this regard... diversity and inclusivity. If there is any sport that needs to take a good long look at itself, it's trail running. The entry fees are out of hand and the diversity about on par with Orania. 

And Kaapsehoep, I am guessing you haven't run it... but it sucks as a run for most normal folk. Running downhill for hours becomes highly unpleasant, which funnily enough makes it a pretty darn good qualifier especially on years such as this one.

Apologies for the thread hijack everyone else

 

[Long Wheel Base]

My franchise sponsor the kimitri team and the team celebrity is non other than Carte Blanche presenter Macfarlane Moleli. We as the title sponsor are so proud of him and the rest of the team and to see our name and logo on their chest and back with all the camera time Mac got and what will still come from it, we are hoping for a good ROI. 

[reteid]

I lay a big part of the blame on the athlete. Tri is SWIM bike run. If you are not a good enough swimmer and IM has to cater for the weakest swimmers to make it safe then you as the athlete is to blame. I coach a few triathletes and when a person comes to me and say I want to do a tri but I hope they cancel or shorten the swim I will not take them on as a coached athlete. I will advise them to go and do bike run events. I have spoken at numerous events to people who are standing wide eyed before the swim and telling me they only swam open water once or twice. Some people regard a 70.3 or IM as a bucket list event and whether there is a swim or shortened swim is not their concern. The want to tick the box and get the medal and move on. I fully understand that not all entrants are like that but the number of people feeling like that has def grown in my experience.

Very few tris are held in a swimming pool so to get better at ows you have to swim in open water. In my view the swim leg should only be cancelled or shortened not because the conditions are difficult but too dangerous to swim.

The dwindling number of entrants and the rising number of first timers is a hint of what is happening to the sport I have been doing since 1987 with my first Radio 5/ Perm series event at Hobie beach. I have seen the gentle drift from this being an adventure event with risks to an event that caters to the will and whims of unprepared first timers.

[dave303e]

1 hour ago, Andrew Steer said:

I always do wonder why there is this massive resentment towards the road running scene from Trail runners... I do both, enjoy both and am equally useless at both, but I clearly missed the secret handshake or blood oath somewhere along the line.

Yes ASA are pretty useless, as per pretty much all government linked entities, but a license for the year is small fry (R120) in the grand scheme of things and we've got the most incredible and well supported calendar and some truly world class events. Clubs organize races, keeping entry costs lower, giving everyone access to safe, supported runs - then those race fees build the clubs up, allowing them to support their more talented runners, creating a strong local running scene and a wonderful diverse and inclusive running culture.

And where road running is a million miles ahead of trail, is exactly in this regard... diversity and inclusivity. If there is any sport that needs to take a good long look at itself, it's trail running. The entry fees are out of hand and the diversity about on par with Orania. 

And Kaapsehoep, I am guessing you haven't run it... but it sucks as a run for most normal folk. Running downhill for hours becomes highly unpleasant, which funnily enough makes it a pretty darn good qualifier especially on years such as this one.

Apologies for the thread hijack everyone else

 

I have nothing against the actual road running. I have done more road racing than trail in the last 2 years. Which is weird because I train 100% on dirt. The pace needed on road is something that has massive benefits when you go back to trail. Same as doing triathlons, I have done quite a few 70.3 distance events even though I don't remotely consider myself a triathlete. But the intensity, raw pace and racing at threshold that comes with a triathlon setting, makes me a better adventure racer in a way.

I do have a lot against pointless admin, illogical things and governing bodies though. I used to pay over a grand for an offroad/enduro motorcycle license every year. But that came with health insurance, insurance for the landowners, dope testing etc. So I didn't mind it. Look at the cross country racing in SA vs the park runs. Paying an ASA fee to run cross country every now and then vs a free highly competitive event on your doorstep every Saturday. Yes the control and doping etc is better under ASA, but for 90% of the field it makes 0 difference.

Calling it qualifying criteria and then not accepting results that show you are capable enough of covering the distance in the time has absolutely no logic to me. Which then points to it being more a pointless admin/association issue.

Reality is as someone said before- If I wanna run comrades, I need to run an ASA approved qualification event, take it or leave it. If Comrades was battling they would potentially rethink it. But they are not and hopefully never will be battling, so I better make like a seal and jump through their prescribed hoops if I want to race.

As for the costs, yes trail is exorbitant, but 100km route and race setup for 150 racers vs a 42km route for thousands of racers. You can see how the economy of scale is at play there and hits the costs. Unfortunately that is a barrier to diversity, although the recent results from the harties trail series are looking more promising. In my opinion I like that the diversity is coming through, it is coming too slowly, but it is happening as road runners realise there is some money to be made. As per above- trail runners don't have raw pace like road runners have so the influence of top road runners coming across is awesome. Makes you a better all rounder when you realise you need to sharpen the top end speed and not just rely on the technical stuff.

 

Back to IM though, I hope they can massage and make slight adjustments to try and align better weather windows to give it better odds for next year. I guess it is also tough given the global IM calendar and making it all align.

[shaper]

33 minutes ago, reteid said:

I lay a big part of the blame on the athlete. Tri is SWIM bike run. If you are not a good enough swimmer and IM has to cater for the weakest swimmers to make it safe then you as the athlete is to blame. I coach a few triathletes and when a person comes to me and say I want to do a tri but I hope they cancel or shorten the swim I will not take them on as a coached athlete. I will advise them to go and do bike run events. I have spoken at numerous events to people who are standing wide eyed before the swim and telling me they only swam open water once or twice. Some people regard a 70.3 or IM as a bucket list event and whether there is a swim or shortened swim is not their concern. The want to tick the box and get the medal and move on. I fully understand that not all entrants are like that but the number of people feeling like that has def grown in my experience.

Very few tris are held in a swimming pool so to get better at ows you have to swim in open water. In my view the swim leg should only be cancelled or shortened not because the conditions are difficult but too dangerous to swim.

The dwindling number of entrants and the rising number of first timers is a hint of what is happening to the sport I have been doing since 1987 with my first Radio 5/ Perm series event at Hobie beach. I have seen the gentle drift from this being an adventure event with risks to an event that caters to the will and whims of unprepared first timers.

Couldn't agree more!!

Most if not all doing the full would have done a few 70.3's before if not already done a few full's.  They will have practiced and raced OWS and would be comfortable in most conditions.  So delaying the start to let the storm pass would have been considered correct for the possible dangerous conditions, They should have swum once the storm had passed as pretty much all are adept OW swimmers.

It is the 70.3 where most first timers are.

Shortening for the 70.3 decision seems to have been taken the minute they decided to shorten the full (as mentioned earlier they quickly picked up the far buoys and brought them in) even though their official start time was almost 2hrs after the Pro's and conditions were much more favourable for a swim. Seems like Ironman had to do it to possibly save face as they could not let the full be shortened and then the 70.3 to not be?

I have met people at events who's first OWS is the Saturday morning practice swim the day before the race.  So find it unbelievable that they want to do an IM event but do not prepare for it.

There seems to be a great deal of negativity in IMSA direction across many platforms so hope they take heed and do something to make it a full swim, bike and run race and not an event for the unprepared.

 

 

[The Ouzo]

1 hour ago, shaper said:

I have met people at events who's first OWS is the Saturday morning practice swim the day before the race.  So find it unbelievable that they want to do an IM event but do not prepare for it.

what is considered an OWS though ?

Lake / Ocean. Because in my mind swimming in a lake and swimming in an ocean is not the same. But rather difficult for upcountry folk to practice in the ocean very often.

[reteid]

1 hour ago, The Ouzo said:

what is considered an OWS though ?

Lake / Ocean. Because in my mind swimming in a lake and swimming in an ocean is not the same. But rather difficult for upcountry folk to practice in the ocean very often.

Anything other than a pool in my books is an ows. The ultimate would be to swim in the same conditions ie dam/sea you are going to race in, but if you do not have access to the sea it is still better to swim in a dam/lake etc than in a pool in my view.

[ChrisF]

1 hour ago, The Ouzo said:

what is considered an OWS though ?

Lake / Ocean. Because in my mind swimming in a lake and swimming in an ocean is not the same. But rather difficult for upcountry folk to practice in the ocean very often.

 

Very true

 

Starting out a few years back my friend was a decent cyclist, that had to work at getting running and swimming fit .....

 

And YES, initially this was a LOT of swimming at the gym.  Seriously suffered at the first full Ironman - she started with a full, not a half.

 

Next time round a couple of sea swims, and even few lake swims formed part of the preparations.  Still mostly gym swim - purely logistical reasons.

 

This time round the Ironman preparations dove tailed with preparations for a Roben Island swim.  Thus a lot more sea swimming.  Also a lot easier logistically once you pair with a group like this.

 

She did a lot better with the swim this time round than previous IM events.  Results wise it is a pity the swim was shortened, as she can now make up time on her competitors in the swim.

 

 

Very few are born Ironman athletes.  Some do learn and work hard at their weak points and grow into the sport.

 

 

Ironically, looking deeper into her stats .... she worked so hard at running and swimming that cycling was where she lost most time to her competitors this time.    As good as she did, the stats shows where the next improvements are ready for the picking ....

[SwissVan]

12 hours ago, TurkeyFarmer said:

Where did I say I had zero experience. I said I sat this one out because I am nursing an injury. Have competed there a number of times. I was registered, but chose not to start, based on my physios recommendation. This would have been my 9th 70.3, and my third IM event in PE

I was not relying on people on the ground to give me feedback, I was there. The weather was really bad earlier in the morning, and when we went into transition early morning to rack bottles, we were thinking the swim might be cancelled completely. You cant with a clear conscious send hundreds of people into a ocean swim with lightning striking, that is insanity. The call was made, and the start delayed. Maybe they were a bit premature making the call, but it is what it is. By the time the 70.3 start took place, the weather had pretty much completely cleared, but the event was already delayed, and the bouys were out the water, so it was too late to reverse it. 

All in, was a great event weekend, and the gees in PE was as good as ever.  Had major FOMO, and look forward to being back next year. 

But I am here for to look for deals on the marketplace, I should have known better than to actually engage with the forum side of things. The negativity and expert opinions of a bunch of people who weren’t there and have no intention of taking part in the future either just struck a nerve, after having a great weekend in PE.  As you were

You are off to a good start "with the forum side of things" 

Another 998 posts and you will qualify for premium membership

 

 

[Jewbacca]

IMHO if you are not prepared to swim in rough conditions, you should be given the option to pull out or do a shorter swim but start later knowing you have less time for the rest. 

If guys training upcountry swam in dams during very strong winds they would be sufficiently ready for a rough sea swim. 

In 2016 they almost shortened the swim because 'waves' and in reality the conditions were perfectly fine. 

Train for the worst possible conditions and be ready if they come. 

I'm guilty of not getting on the bike if it's windy because it's rubbish and I don't enjoy it. I'd guess most OWSers don't venture out in wind/slop either.

When I swam a lot in the sea we swam in all the conditions so that if, come race/challenge day it was horrible, we were as ready as we could be

Sport has become soft because the attitude of society has changed. Events are expected to cater for people who are unwilling to properlt prepare.

Two Oceans cut off now extended to 7 and a half hours. Qualifiers 5 hours is just an example.

I always said, the hardest part of IM was the training. Race day was a breeze. 

[Cheabb78]

The thing I've been wondering reading the various comments is how are event organisers determining the swimming capability, or otherwise, of the field, when making what are now perceived as conservative calls? The general opinion above is that more and more people are underprepared, but there is no qualifying criteria, so how is it determined? Is it general feedback or concerns voiced prior to events from prospective participants? Or is there historical results data highlighting a general trend of weaker / slower swimmers? Genuinely curious...

I did take part in the Durban 70.3 in 2016 in which the swim was cancelled for AG athletes, and I was quite disappointed until saw the pros swimming that morning, but I haven't been to a PE event since 2008, so can't offer any opinion on the recent years, and trust the opinion of the regulars in PE who have commented above.