Hunting - yes or no?

[leeubok]

So the comments on this thread https://community.bikehub.co.za/topic/178969-it-is-a-crazy-world-out-there/page-2 has prompted me to start this one. So we have 2 camps here, pro hunting and anti-hunting. There should be a third camp though, people that don't hunt themselves, but still believe hunting plays a role in conservation. Nowadays you dare not post a photo of yourself hunting on social media, for you will be attacked and hounded till the end of days. Just the other day I read the CEO of Panthera (a big cat conservation org) had to resign because someone dug up old photos of him hunting, and the greenies tore into the org. 

 

 

So a little background on myself first. I am a hunter, or at least I used to be. Now I'm too broke to hunt. BUT, I am also a conservationist working for a state conservation agency and I live on a game reserve. I have a Msc in Wildlife Management and 12 years’ experience working in conservation. So I think I'm qualified to debate this matter. I’m all for a healthy debate, so let me kick things off.

 

 

Hunting has a HUGE role to play in conservation. For example:

 

John Smith owns a 10 000ha game farm (Malema hasn’t taken it yet). This farm is his only source of income. Tourism alone doesn’t quite keep the bank manager happy and cover the costs of running the farm, so he allows a certain number of hunts every year. Without the hunting, his farm isn’t profitable anymore. So what’s he going to do? He’s going to change the land use and convert to agricultural farming, that’s what. And guess what happens to the bokkies, the trees, the grass and all of the associated biodiversity..?? It gets ploughed under and mielies are planted in its place. Or sugarcane, or whatever else is more profitable. Now, across SA you have thousands of John Smiths. Most have smaller farms where tourism isn’t profitable at all. So what must they do with their property if they can’t hunt? This is their livelihood and they cannot keep it in a natural state just for the sake of conserving wildlife. If all of them convert their game farms to agriculture there’ll be a MASSIVE loss of biodiversity. I cannot remember the figures now, but the majority of biodiversity in SA is actually found on private/communal land, not in protected areas/nature reserves as people think.

 

 

This brings me to state owned game/nature reserves. Here we conserve for the sake of conservation, right? In the past, yes. In the new SA, NO. The old saying of “if it pays it stays” is now being applied. Most state owned reserves have been land claimed. The new owners demand compensation from their assets on an annual basis. Most state owned reserves (with the exception of Kruger) do not make enough money from tourism to run the reserve AND provide financial benefits to the land owners. Even where reserves haven’t been land claimed they are under immense pressure to provide some kind of beneficiation to neighbouring communities. Resource use, which includes hunting or culling and selling meat, is one way of providing benefits to these communities.

 

 

To not have to hunt OR CULL at all on a property the property must be large enough for natural processes to take place. We have very few of those in SA, and I’d argue that Kruger is the only reserve large enough to be called “natural” whereby you do not need to control animal populations. Everywhere else you have to manage the wildlife populations. And that means either a hunter puts a bullet in bokkies (or predators) and pays the reserve/land owner handsomely for that privilege, or the land managers cull.

 

 

Elsewhere in Africa you had large areas with game, whereby professional hunters could become concessionaires of an area. Not only did they hunt in these areas, but the protected the area from poachers, built infrastructure like roads etc and contributed financially to the local communities. Then the anti-hunting brigade managed to drive them out. Guess what happened? The bokkies had no more value to the communities other than filling their bellies, so there is NOTHING left.

 

 

So, let’s here the opposing arguments

 

 

[Sepia]

No argument here.  Ex farmer hunter myself and would hunt again for the pot only.

Have done the Tanzanian concession management  thing so have a bit of knowledge to hold my own.

i would much prefer to kill politicians these days.

 

So this is a yes.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Sepia

[Napalm]

I've got no problem in hunting for food, or culling.

 

Trofee hunting, however, is something totally different. It is catered exclusively for someone's ego - and while it can benefit surrounding communities, it's too open for abuse. 

[forkie]

I am a hunter and i shoot one or two animals a year because i love venison.

 

My biggest issue with hunting currently is the way its done. Chasing and shooting an animal from the back of a bakkie is not hunting. but it seems to be becoming more and more the norm nowadays. the farmer wants his cash no matter how he gets it. unfortunately these practises dont help the cause for hunting.

[Slowbee]

https://www.news24.com/Video/SouthAfrica/News/watch-hit-it-between-the-eyes-elephants-charge-at-hunters-after-one-shot-down-20181017

[Fruity]

I hunt in Zelda: Breath of the Wild, does that count?

 

 

 

With that said, there is a certain B&B where the wife and I go to for a holiday once a year. There's a nature reserve that's quite close to the B&B that has lots of bokke, and once in a while when it's culling season, the B&B has hunters staying over. I've met some of those hunters and they seem like lekker okes.

[Long Wheel Base]

Not a hunter and not opposed to it at all, unless it's trophy hunting!!!

So my Dad and Oupa used to hunt. They went away twice a year together for a long weekend and went hunting. I was never old enough, My Dad said I needed to mature a lot before he took me with. Then my Oupa started getting a bit too old to go trapping through the bushes and they stopped going. When he passed away he left one of his rifles to me. I did want to get my license and go on a trip with my toppie but it just never happened. I don't agree with guys hunting on the back of their bakkie or hunting caged animals. My toppie used to tell me stories of how they would walk for hours without even seeing a single buck.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

https://www.news24.com/Video/SouthAfrica/News/watch-hit-it-between-the-eyes-elephants-charge-at-hunters-after-one-shot-down-20181017

That wasn't a good hunt at all... "have you got him, have you got him, hit him between the eyes"

 

waits for it to turn, waits a bit more, then shoots. Another 2 shots to get it down. Naai, man. 

[Grease_Monkey]

All for hunting on my side, whether it be for sport, conservation, or food. But responsibly...

 

I guess explaining to an alien (ie: someone not influenced by any of our thinking) why it is okay to hunt a springbok, nyala, impala, kudu, etc., but not an elephant, lion, or cheetah is next to impossible - but that's where I'm at. Not a big hunter myself (I wish I could go more often), but I do enjoy it for the sport and meat I get out of it.

 

Also not a supporter of hunting from the back of a bakkie, if you are going to hunt for sport, at least earn your kill. Hunting for butcheries (ie: professional hunters that shoot purely for food or culling reasons) from the back of a bakkie - I have no issues with that.

[G.S.W]

From a strict vegetarian's point of view I believe hunting for the pot is way better than farming animals for slaughter!

 

I had to go on a school trip to Cato Ridge abattoir, most of the guys went off meat for a while after the visit and experiencing first hand how things are done and how cruel an callous the workers become! Will spare you the details!

 

Rainbow chicken abattoir is even worse! Birds who duck at the wrong time miss the electric shock and be-heading and end-up going into the automated plucker alive!

 

So yes hunting in my humble opinion is acceptable if done with respect and compassion for the animal! But its not for me to judge or preach my beliefs to others

 

 

[fanievb]

don't shoot what you won't eat

trophy hunting is ***

[Kranswurm]

That wasn't a good hunt at all... "have you got him, have you got him, hit him between the eyes"

 

waits for it to turn, waits a bit more, then shoots. Another 2 shots to get it down. Naai, man. 

Lots of hunts are f*ck*d up.

I do not have the time of day for trophy hunters nor in most cases your "shoot for the pot"hunter weekends away with the manne with their branne....

I have been invited to many of those where its all laid on and you choose your bag.All gets cleaned and turned in cuts or billies and home you go with your chest freezer full.I turn it down

Sorry,cant stand the vibe.

I grew up with farms and animals and firearms but the gratuitous shooting and killing disgusts me.

[SwissVan]

 

So the comments on this thread https://community.bikehub.co.za/topic/178969-it-is-a-crazy-world-out-there/page-2 has prompted me to start this one. So we have 2 camps here, pro hunting and anti-hunting. There should be a third camp though, people that don't hunt themselves, but still believe hunting plays a role in conservation. Nowadays you dare not post a photo of yourself hunting on social media, for you will be attacked and hounded till the end of days. Just the other day I read the CEO of Panthera (a big cat conservation org) had to resign because someone dug up old photos of him hunting, and the greenies tore into the org.

 

So a little background on myself first. I am a hunter, or at least I used to be. Now I'm too broke to hunt. BUT, I am also a conservationist working for a state conservation agency and I live on a game reserve. I have a Msc in Wildlife Management and 12 years’ experience working in conservation. So I think I'm qualified to debate this matter. I’m all for a healthy debate, so let me kick things off.

 

Hunting has a HUGE role to play in conservation. For example:

John Smith owns a 10 000ha game farm (Malema hasn’t taken it yet). This farm is his only source of income. Tourism alone doesn’t quite keep the bank manager happy and cover the costs of running the farm, so he allows a certain number of hunts every year. Without the hunting, his farm isn’t profitable anymore. So what’s he going to do? He’s going to change the land use and convert to agricultural farming, that’s what. And guess what happens to the bokkies, the trees, the grass and all of the associated biodiversity..?? It gets ploughed under and mielies are planted in its place. Or sugarcane, or whatever else is more profitable. Now, across SA you have thousands of John Smiths. Most have smaller farms where tourism isn’t profitable at all. So what must they do with their property if they can’t hunt? This is their livelihood and they cannot keep it in a natural state just for the sake of conserving wildlife. If all of them convert their game farms to agriculture there’ll be a MASSIVE loss of biodiversity. I cannot remember the figures now, but the majority of biodiversity in SA is actually found on private/communal land, not in protected areas/nature reserves as people think.

 

This brings me to state owned game/nature reserves. Here we conserve for the sake of conservation, right? In the past, yes. In the new SA, NO. The old saying of “if it pays it stays” is now being applied. Most state owned reserves have been land claimed. The new owners demand compensation from their assets on an annual basis. Most state owned reserves (with the exception of Kruger) do not make enough money from tourism to run the reserve AND provide financial benefits to the land owners. Even where reserves haven’t been land claimed they are under immense pressure to provide some kind of beneficiation to neighbouring communities. Resource use, which includes hunting or culling and selling meat, is one way of providing benefits to these communities.

 

To not have to hunt OR CULL at all on a property the property must be large enough for natural processes to take place. We have very few of those in SA, and I’d argue that Kruger is the only reserve large enough to be called “natural” whereby you do not need to control animal populations. Everywhere else you have to manage the wildlife populations. And that means either a hunter puts a bullet in bokkies (or predators) and pays the reserve/land owner handsomely for that privilege, or the land managers cull.

 

Elsewhere in Africa you had large areas with game, whereby professional hunters could become concessionaires of an area. Not only did they hunt in these areas, but the protected the area from poachers, built infrastructure like roads etc and contributed financially to the local communities. Then the anti-hunting brigade managed to drive them out. Guess what happened? The bokkies had no more value to the communities other than filling their bellies, so there is NOTHING left.

 

So, let’s here the opposing arguments

Hi Leeubok

Thanks for your post and information. The issues of conservation and hunting are well understood from my side. I know it’s a topic that will not easily, if ever, be resolved in a way that will keep everyone happy.

 

I’ve never gone hunting, and would only consider it if there were no other options. In this day and age I don’t believe the majority of 1st world citizens need to hunt.

 

My biggest issue is with the human mindset and double standards applied to the rest of nature, whereby “we” think we have the right to do what we like on this planet to every other living specie, except ourselves.

 

I just have one question, which I know will sound ridiculous and be quickly dismissed:

Excluding fueds and war, why don’t we hunt and kill humans as well?

 

The planet is over populated and heading towards a disaster as a result. There are plenty of humans who deserve nothing less, yet they have every right to continue living?

[Vetplant]

I shot some birds with the windbuks and .22 on the farm when I was a lightie but I have never hunted because I detest the macho drinking and bravado weekend it typically turns into. So no, I don't hunt.

 

I do see the benefit of hunting for conservation, but I don't see the need to make every game farm a hunting farm.

 

We regularly go to a shareholding Game Farm where 100 properties are spread across the Farm. This farm has now graduated to a Reserve and enjoys the associated benefits and profits without having to hunt a single animal. So I am just saying that there are farming models that are sustainable without hosting hunters.

 

Just a quick wrap-up of the animals that have decent numbers on the farm:

-Sable

-Buffalo

-Rhino

-Giraffe

-Waterbuck

-Impala

-Blue wildebeest

-Leopards

And a whole ecosystem of birds.

[leeubok]

So its clear many people don't like the so called "vibe" that goes on during hunts. Yes I agree in many cases it is just one big piss-up. BUT there are also many ethical hunters out there, more than the drunks I'd say. But lets not get into the ethics of hunting, that wasn't what the debate was about. The argument from some was that hunting, in whatever form, should be stopped completely. 

[leeubok]

don't shoot what you won't eat

 

trophy hunting is ***

 

Why? At the end of the day that trophy hunter directly pays for the continued existence of biodiversity on that farm