Table Mountain, WTF??.

[capediver]

16 minutes ago, Headshot said:

The reason people are frustrated is because , well you know SANP. lest we forget- 

The work they are undertaking is relatively minor in the bigger scheme of things. The jeep tracks are fine and that's just about all there is to cycle on there anyway. There is some danger from falling trees but tracks under the trees in question could be closed off rather than the whole area. if someone then got a tree on their head it would be their fault, just as it will be now if people transgress. People are gat vol of the government and other money sapping government organizations like SANP regulating their lives in ways that make little sense. ( think bizarre lock down regulations and a closure of many weeks for TM when a few weeks should be sufficient)  Added to this is a perception that SANP have been very bad at managing the park, milking it but spending as little as possible and that they permitted this fire to occur through poor management and clearing.

By way of example: Jonkers burned to the ground a few months ago and was partially open within 2-3 weeks if I recall. There is an element of paranoia about SANP's closure of fire ravaged areas. When it came to Tokai we were only allowed back in there after a letter TokaiMTB penned ended up on Alan Winde's and then the park managers desk. The letter was necessary after it appeared that SANP were reneging on their undertaking to reopen on the date they had agreed on. 

Looking at the long history of SANP and its track record of poor management, bad public relations and red tape second to none, I'm not surprised people behave badly when confronted with seemingly pointless restrictions on access. This is peoples happy place after all and SANP are preventing access.

Added to this is the fact that  some people who should know better have been accessing the closed areas  and have probably encouraged others to do the same by their behaviour  leading to additional confrontation.  

(This should not be read as condoning idiotic behaviour like assault on rangers or any other illegal conduct and is merely an attempt to balance this thread with a dose of reality as far as SANP are concerned) 

Does of reality absorbed, however, we need to be just as outraged by this reported behaviour as we were with the incident involving Mr Dlamini. It's unacceptable no matter the frustration!

[DJR]

10 minutes ago, capediver said:

................. however, we need to be just as outraged by this reported behaviour as we were with the incident involving Mr Dlamini. It's unacceptable no matter the frustration!

Yes!

[Headshot]

31 minutes ago, capediver said:

Does of reality absorbed, however, we need to be just as outraged by this reported behaviour as we were with the incident involving Mr Dlamini. It's unacceptable no matter the frustration!

Quite so. The Dlamini incident has probably led to more aggressive behaviour from visitors towards rangers I suspect. 

[porqui]

10 hours ago, TheoG said:

This is unacceptable behavior, disgusting.  Who ever you are grow up and stop your crap.

There is a history that you might not be aware of.

I certainly do not condone any pushing of any ranger to the ground or throwing stones at them. 

I cannot imagine any rider actually doing that either if it was a cyclist at all as apparently SANParks did not mention that it was a cyclist it could have been a hiker or other and the "other" could refer to some dubious characters that frequent that area. That is why I said I would like to know what really happened as some embellishment could also be in the offing.

"Grow up" in deed - read my words as they stand and don't add your own interpretation please.

Edited May 26, 2021 by porqui

[BJH]

Taking out your frustrations on a TMNP official either by verbally or physically abusing them says more about you as a person (read cyclist, runner, walker etc) than the TMNP official.

[DJR]

10 hours ago, porqui said:

There is a history that you might not be aware of.

I certainly do not condone any pushing of any ranger to the ground or throwing stones at them. 

I cannot imagine any rider actually doing that either if it was a cyclist at all as apparently SANParks did not mention that it was a cyclist it could have been a hiker or other and the "other" could refer to some dubious characters that frequent that area. That is why I said I would like to know what really happened as some embellishment could also be in the offing.

"Grow up" in deed - read my words as they stand and don't add your own interpretation please.

I also want to hear the whole story, and I am sure there will be another side to the story, but unless the culprit comes forward or is caught, we will not hear that side. Then it stands as told by SANParks.

[Kranswurm]

11 hours ago, porqui said:

There is a history that you might not be aware of.

I certainly do not condone any pushing of any ranger to the ground or throwing stones at them. 

I cannot imagine any rider actually doing that either if it was a cyclist at all as apparently SANParks did not mention that it was a cyclist it could have been a hiker or other and the "other" could refer to some dubious characters that frequent that area. That is why I said I would like to know what really happened as some embellishment could also be in the offing.

"Grow up" in deed - read my words as they stand and don't add your own interpretation please.

You will be shocked how people behave.

Some of the older Cradle saga's spring to mind and one of your Cape Town Clubs assaulting a driver in Camps Bay..

[TheoG]

14 hours ago, porqui said:

There is a history that you might not be aware of.

I certainly do not condone any pushing of any ranger to the ground or throwing stones at them. 

I cannot imagine any rider actually doing that either if it was a cyclist at all as apparently SANParks did not mention that it was a cyclist it could have been a hiker or other and the "other" could refer to some dubious characters that frequent that area. That is why I said I would like to know what really happened as some embellishment could also be in the offing.

"Grow up" in deed - read my words as they stand and don't add your own interpretation please.

I did read the history as mentioned in this and other posts, and are "to a certain extent" aware of the issues at hand. 

It only happened randomly that I chose to responded to your message, actually in agreement to what your were saying, so now I'm the one that's confused by your reaction.

Yes obviously I would also like to know the full story from ALL sides, BUT, if true, any physical acts/reaction by ANYONE for that matter, can not be condoned, and that was what I specifically referred to.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by TheoG

[MintSauce]

On 5/26/2021 at 10:02 AM, TNT1 said:

Puts their overreaction to Dlamini into context now.

Is this trolling, sarcasm or ignorance...?

[TNT1]

Just now, MintSauce said:

Is this trolling, sarcasm or ignorance...?

What?

You think the clear escalation and continual antagonism between cyclists and SanParks didn't play a role in the way the rangers overreacted to Dlamini?

 

Do you think I'm condoning what they did? Cause I didn't say that. If you're serious with your post, can I ask if you're ignorant or too intellectually challenged in that you can't see the big picture here?

I'm pointing out that there is a clear escalation of this issue which results in injuries on both sides.

[Patchelicious]

On 5/26/2021 at 7:03 AM, DrRichard said:

But when you are doing something illegal, and get caught, and then abuse the person who is responsible for policing the law - then we have sunk to an evened lower low

The type of person who believes that certain rules don’t apply to them, are also the type of who will not take accountability for their actions.

Try ask a fellow cyclist who just jumped a light to not do so, even when done politely you will get sworn at.

[Jbr]

Saw a Sanparks lady on my way down from signal hill this morning, she gave her best smile and I smiled back at her. At least they don't all hate us

[Pure Savage]

Sho you MTBers need to chill out and come for a ride to Chappies!!

Having dealt with the retardedness of SANP on other matters I can understand people's frustration, but obviously you cannot go around attacking people. Don't even know why had to clarify that. 

Anyway, people are terrible, had a 8 year old girl throwing rocks at geese at Kirstenbosch 2 weeks ago, not surprising that an adult would throw a rock at a SANPARK employee.

[Sid the Sloth]

26 minutes ago, Pure Savage said:

Sho you MTBers need to chill out and come for a ride to Chappies!!

Having dealt with the retardedness of SANP on other matters I can understand people's frustration, but obviously you cannot go around attacking people. Don't even know why had to clarify that. 

Anyway, people are terrible, had a 8 year old girl throwing rocks at geese at Kirstenbosch 2 weeks ago, not surprising that an adult would throw a rock at a SANPARK employee.

 Nothing like the relaxing sound of causing pain and suffering along the coastline!

[MintSauce]

2 minutes ago, TNT1 said:

What?

You think the clear escalation and continual antagonism between cyclists and SanParks didn't play a role in the way the rangers overreacted to Dlamini?

 

Do you think I'm condoning what they did? Cause I didn't say that. If you're serious with your post, can I ask if you're ignorant or too intellectually challenged in that you can't see the big picture here?

I'm pointing out that there is a clear escalation of this issue which results in injuries on both sides.

Jesus, calm down.

No, I'm not ignorant or intellectually challenged, but based on your initial reply, I was being serious. Your initial reply "Puts their overreaction to Dlamini into context now" in response to "According to a SANPaks spokesperson...SANParks rangers are being abused on a regular basis on the mountain by cyclists" would, to any reasonable human being, read as "Cyclists are abusing the rangers, no wonder they assaulted Dlamini"

If your thought process was as you stated in your second reply, then I apologise for reading your typed words at face value and not making assumptions about what you may or may not potentially have meant.

As for the escalation and where it started, I'm a Capetonian all my life and a mountain biker for 27 years. I'm only too aware of that. Let me tell you about an event that happened to an acquaintance about 15 years ago. He is an avid cyclist and trail runner who lived on Signal Hill at the time. On one of his early morning runs (not RIDES) he was running either from or to the Kramat on Signal Hill, in the dark, with a headlamp on, when he suddenly heard someone shouting at him, something along the lines of "I'VE GOT YOU! I'VE GOT YOU! YOU'RE NOT GETTING AWAY THIS MORNING!". When he got to the exit of the trail he was met by, at the time the lead ranger, who had assumed he was riding and went into a literal, fuming tirade about "YOU MOUNTAIN BIKERS!!!". It carried on for several minutes with him repeatedly pointing out that he was RUNNING and very clearly did not have a bicycle with him. I still remember him saying that this completely unreasonable, reactionary idiot was actually allowed to carry a gun, which he was at the time.

This was at a time when mountain biking was much less popular and there were far, far fewer of us on the mountain.

One gets the impression that SANParks sees cyclists riding illegal trails as criminals that must be caught at all costs, yet they don't seem to have the desire to catch muggers and murderers. You hardly ever see a ranger on the mountain, yet there have been two occasions where SANParks have declared that certain trails would be opened to cyclists and have then followed up by posting rangers at those specific points to catch riders. Were the riders I know of who got caught in two such cases on separate trails in the wrong for riding there? Yes, they were. But it speaks volumes of the attitude of SANParks that they would be so petty to go to such lengths to catch (and charge criminally in one case) riders trying to enjoy a trail that's going to be opened anyway in literally a few days.

As I see it, it's not the riders who were antagonistic. I'm not in any way condoning riding illegal trails, the assault on the rangers or the bad treatment they endure. In fact, I strongly condemn all of it. I make a point to always interact in a friendly manner with them and to thank them for their work and I ride legal trails only. However, if they want to know why they don't receive respect, they might want to consider how much they give the people they're supposed to be serving.

[Vaultboy]

So often we see reminder about how we, as MTBers, need to be respectful of the landowners whose properties we ride on, that riding there is a privilege and not a right, even though we pay for that access, etc. The same thing applies to conservation agencies. We need to remember that their primary business is not recreation - it is conservation. Our access is a privilege, even though we pay for it (through taxes and/or permits). The fact that we pay doesn't give anyone permission to be douchebags anymore than we would to a landowner or their employees.