Will you repair this?

[Carbon Ninja]

And even then, MANY a time their professional opinions get questioned. Sometimes with good reason. A second or a third opinion is often not a bad thing at all. I can't see that doing it for a seriously ill carbon frame should be any different.

Absolutely, that's just good practice. All I'm saying is that, (and maybe I should just speak for myself since I agree that there is, some fly by night work out there), is that I am qualified to make the determination. As laymen, you have an opinion but that it might be misinformed. We as repairers shouldn't be disparaged by the public because their insurers aren't playing ball.

[Edge_Design]

Just a question. Does a LBS not also have a possible conflict of interest here, as they are selling a new frame which the insurance is paying for? Surely a LBS would rather replace a frame than send the business to a repairer?

 

When it comes to insurance, everyone is clambering for their money so there is always a conflict (insurers don't ask for discounts and are often even willing to pay a premium as they work through assessors who are also conflicted). It's a very messy industry... In this case you probably don't have any legal claim but get them to confirm in writing that if the frame is not restored to it's original condition after the repair then they must replace it. If it is restored to original condition by an "expert" then there isn't much to argue. Alternatively take the cash cost of the repair and pay in to buy a new frame.

[Mopkop]

The thing is, and I say this most respectfully, is that what I've read here amounts mostly to unqualified and inexpert opinion.

I submit, again respectfully, that in order to make a determination on the suitability of a frame for structural repair you should be adequately qualified in the field of composite repairs.

As laymen we deal unquestioningly with doctors diagnosing and treating our health, because they're specialists.

If a qualified composite repair specialist says something can be repaired safely, then surely they deserve that same courtesy?

 

Obviously I say all of this without considering the context of what-you-pay-for versus what-you-get in terms of insurance. That's a completely different topic. I, as a carbon repair specialist am approached by insurance to provide quotations on repair costs and this I do honestly and fairly. My company has however been victimised by irate insured cyclists a few times, as they pursue their goal of having their bike replaced instead of repaired. I can tell you, it's not fun...

 

I do not have an issue with repaired frames BUT where my bike has broken is what I'm questioning. If it was a crack then I would think of doing a repair. But the way the headtube has basically snapped does not make me feel comfortable. 

 

The only issue arises when the original 5 year warranty on the bike is no longer valid as its been repaired, so if you damage a fork and repaired, then the chain stay snaps - cant claim warranty. 

 

Nothing to do with the carbon repair company, I think its unfair the insurance company even includes you in that convo with client.

 

This is my argument with them now, What happens in future if any further issues arise with the frame as I still have 3 years left of the manufacturer warranty but this is obviously void once the repair is done.

[Mopkop]

When it comes to insurance, everyone is clambering for their money so there is always a conflict (insurers don't ask for discounts and are often even willing to pay a premium as they work through assessors who are also conflicted). It's a very messy industry... In this case you probably don't have any legal claim but get them to confirm in writing that if the frame is not restored to it's original condition after the repair then they must replace it. If it is restored to original condition by an "expert" then there isn't much to argue. Alternatively take the cash cost of the repair and pay in to buy a new frame.

 

If I was to cash out the repair amount on the whole bike (Frame, wheels, Shifters, pedals, derailleur) then I cannot even replace the frame as I'd still be about 20% short for the frame alone

[Carbon Ninja]

I do not have an issue with repaired frames BUT where my bike has broken is what I'm questioning. If it was a crack then I would think of doing a repair. But the way the headtube has basically snapped does not make me feel comfortable.

 

I completely understand, you just have to take my word for it, and in turn my word must be backed up by my qualifications and/or my experience and crack record.

 

You still have to get your head around it though. Part of my work in restoring your confidence in your repaired bicycle is the lifetime guarantee that I offer, and the fact that I, my wife, my kids and my dad all ride bikes that were once in a worse state than yours!

 

[DieselnDust]

Santam via PSG

 

This has crossed my mind now.

 

Its been radio silence since Friday, Ill be giving them a call tomorrow morning 

 

 

I think its more a case of the policy that your have with your broker.

I'm also with Santam and they replaced my whole bike when the frame cracked. Too many non transferable parts so they took the economical way out. You're insured for the risk. It appears PSG is not playing ball

[DJR]

Absolutely, that's just good practice. All I'm saying is that, (and maybe I should just speak for myself since I agree that there is, some fly by night work out there), is that I am qualified to make the determination. As laymen, you have an opinion but that it might be misinformed. We as repairers shouldn't be disparaged by the public because their insurers aren't playing ball.

I very much appreciate you posting on here Carbon Ninja. It is great to get someone with the right knowledge to give input. It is adding high value.

[Pure Savage]

I do not have an issue with repaired frames BUT where my bike has broken is what I'm questioning. If it was a crack then I would think of doing a repair. But the way the headtube has basically snapped does not make me feel comfortable.

 

 

This is my argument with them now, What happens in future if any further issues arise with the frame as I still have 3 years left of the manufacturer warranty but this is obviously void once the repair is done.

That’s what I argued and got paid out.

[Mamil]

I'm sure you are a skilled and professional craftsman who wouldn't let a dangerous frame out of his workshop.

 

As a layman however, I cannot see how the frame under discussion in this thread could ever be restored to as good as new condition. There must be some compromise involved - in weight, in the distribution of weight, in comparitive strength across different parts of the structure. I simply don't believe it.

 

My ortho told me after he pinned my bones together that I would get full function back but  we'd have to wait and see about long term impact of the injury in terms of early arthritis and a few other things. I would need some serious science and explanation to help me understand how this frame could ever be reliable again - right now I simply don't believe it.

The thing is, and I say this most respectfully, is that what I've read here amounts mostly to unqualified and inexpert opinion.
I submit, again respectfully, that in order to make a determination on the suitability of a frame for structural repair you should be adequately qualified in the field of composite repairs.
As laymen we deal unquestioningly with doctors diagnosing and treating our health, because they're specialists.
If a qualified composite repair specialist says something can be repaired safely, then surely they deserve that same courtesy?

Obviously I say all of this without considering the context of what-you-pay-for versus what-you-get in terms of insurance. That's a completely different topic. I, as a carbon repair specialist am approached by insurance to provide quotations on repair costs and this I do honestly and fairly. My company has however been victimised by irate insured cyclists a few times, as they pursue their goal of having their bike replaced instead of repaired. I can tell you, it's not fun...

[kosmonooit]

Foobar!

[Madone69]

to Carbon Ninja and all other carbon experts.

 

"I, as a carbon repair specialist am approached by insurance to provide quotations on repair costs and this I do honestly and fairly."

 

Carbon is not just carbon -  different resins, layup, processes, etc

 

my questions.

 

1.how do you address this issue of different carbon -  also how would a Bianchi that has CV incorporated into the carbon be dealt with - can this be repaired/done due to patent issues.

 

2.which other insurance companies are pressing ahead with this type of repairs besides Santam ( i need to change from them asap then )

[V12man]

As laymen we deal unquestioningly with doctors diagnosing and treating our health, because they're specialists.

If a qualified composite repair specialist says something can be repaired safely, then surely they deserve that same courtesy?

 

I suspect you are wrong there Graeme.... big time - almost EVERY diagnosis these days is questioned extensively by every googler around... fact of professional life.

 

I agree it's most annoying that my 14 year education and judgement is questioned a lot and often in arrears - at vast cost in professional lost time and additional insurance costs - that said - if it saves 1 life - is it not worth the additional effort?

 

As an aside - and just because I am curious - do you hold professional indemnity and liability insurance against a claim relating to a failure of a repair with concomitant injuries and lifetime incapacity? or do you expect or assume the insurer or customer takes that risk? I certainly do - my family certainly cannot afford a successful claim given the size of the judgements these days

[edgarblount]

to Carbon Ninja and all other carbon experts.

 

"I, as a carbon repair specialist am approached by insurance to provide quotations on repair costs and this I do honestly and fairly."

 

Carbon is not just carbon -  different resins, layup, processes, etc

 

my questions.

 

1.how do you address this issue of different carbon -  also how would a Bianchi that has CV incorporated into the carbon be dealt with - can this be repaired/done due to patent issues.

 

2.which other insurance companies are pressing ahead with this type of repairs besides Santam ( i need to change from them asap then )

This is a very valid question. Carbon isn't just carbon. A lot of R&D goes into producing these frames. Some manufacturers have patents on their technology. How do we know the local carbon specialists have the correct tooling and tech available to fix it properly? Do we just take their word that they are experts?

[DieselnDust]

This is a very valid question. Carbon isn't just carbon. A lot of R&D goes into producing these frames. Some manufacturers have patents on their technology. How do we know the local carbon specialists have the correct tooling and tech available to fix it properly? Do we just take their word that they are experts?

 

 

I doubt they use the same carbon laid up in the same orientation

[V12man]

I doubt they use the same carbon laid up in the same orientation

Just ask for a copy of the math used to prove  the layup planned and repair is going to be structurally sound.... if you get it and it's correct then I would assume the repairer knows what he is doing.

 

Heuristics don't always provide correct answers...

[BogusOne]

 

 

As an aside - and just because I am curious - do you hold professional indemnity and liability insurance against a claim relating to a failure of a repair with concomitant injuries and lifetime incapacity? or do you expect or assume the insurer or customer takes that risk? I certainly do - my family certainly cannot afford a successful claim given the size of the judgements these days

 

This is a valid question and also why I choose my jobs carefully when it comes to repairs as not all repairs are equal. To carry the insurance is very expensive and I for one can not afford it. Therefor when a repair is a dangerous repair i would much rather walk away and loose the income. Not because i doubt in my ability or the quality of my repair but merely for the peace of mind of what if and not being overly arrogant. And i say again and i will say it over and over, my clients lives are more important than me making a few bucks or them saving a few.

Edited November 27, 2019 by BogusOne