Will you repair this?

[shaper]

Wow, my quotations a year ago or so were in the order of R5k/month. I guess the insurers went safe on an industry they did not fully understand? Anyway, as much as you call BS, I am unable to afford it at present.

My cover is R5m on hundreds of millions of rands projects, it costs R6k pa.  It is likely you would only need R1m cover, could even be less considering the value of the work, so will likely be a fraction of cost of what I have to pay.

 

The figure you quote is somewhat questionable as Professional insurance is charged annually not monthly.  Perhaps speak to a proper PI company like Aon.

 

At least I now know that should an insurance company want to repair one of my bikes I will ask for the repairers PI to cover for personal liability knowing full well the insurance will not be able to provide it in which case I will reject the repair and request replacement.

Edited November 27, 2019 by shaper

[shaper]

To call BS on someone without knowing that persons financial status is uncalled for so your statement is uncalled for. If you can afford R6000 a year good for you. Me on the other hand with a current bank balance of R7 , Yes you read it right R7, so when i say i cant afford it I cant damn well afford it. Just stop for one second and think that not everybody on here is actually in the same situation as what you are. Not everyone on here can afford the best of everything. FFS.

Not at all, you choose to run a business where you have both confirmed neither of you have PI to cover personal injury due to your work and we must go on trust.... trust that you didn't have a bad day at the office when repairing a bike, possibly my bike !!

[Mojoman]

My cover is R5m on hundreds of millions of rands projects, it costs R6k pa. It is likely you would only need R1m cover, could even be less considering the value of the work, so will likely be a fraction of cost of what I have to pay.

 

The figure you quote is somewhat questionable as Professional insurance is charged annually not monthly. Perhaps speak to a proper PI company like Aon.

 

At least I now know that should an insurance company want to repair one om bikes I will ask your the repairers PI to cover for personal liability knowing full well the insurance will not be able to provide it in which case I will reject the repair and request replacement.

insurance is all very well and necessary but you can never be 100% certain that your claim will be paid until you make a claim...that's my take on it...

[shaper]

insurance is all very well and necessary but you can never be 100% certain that your claim will be paid until you make a claim...that's my take on it...

Irrespective, at least I know I have cover and it will end up insurance company fighting with insurance company and not me personally being liable

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Will chirp in here with regard to Professional Indemnity and do not accept your argument, with regard to cost. I am in the construction industry, a consultant and HAVE to have PI. For a cover of R5m it costs me just over R6000 pa. The cost is also relative to the size of projects that I do. Not a large cost in the scheme of things and if a building collapses with people in it am more at risk than someone coming off a bike.

 

Further you can also mitigate your risk profile. Each year when I renew my PI, I am required to complete a very detailed pages and pages questionnaire of what work I will and wont carry out. Should I be found to carry out work I previously said I would not do because I know it would increase my premiums I will get screwed by my insurer. Similarly if I outsource work my PI will be affected.

 

So this being your formal work line and not just a hobby to say you do not have PI and cannot afford it is BS. The type of work and the value of work that I need cover for runs into the hundreds of millions of Rands project cost, considerably more than repairing a tens of thousands priced bike and my PI is only R6k pa.

Uh, shaper... You cannot extrapolate your PI cost to someone in a different industry. It's a vastly different situation for each occupation and in the medical field can run to hundreds of thousands of rands each year, as an example.

 

5k p/a is a very low cost for PI cover. That said, it's always a good option to have in place.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Captain Fastbastard Mayhem

[Mojoman]

Irrespective, at least I know I have cover and it will end up insurance company fighting with insurance company and not me personally being liable

agreed....my car isn't worth much but it is insured....just so I don't have to personally deal with accident consequences...

[DJR]

@ Carbon Ninja

 

As I said above, I appreciate your input. I have never needed a serious repair job on a carbon bike (I only have one between the steel, titanium and aluminium ones) I would not have bothered to repair anything more than a very minor crack if I ever needed to, but reading your posts have changed my mind. I still hope I never need your expertise (just like I hope never to need the orthopedic surgeon again) but it is good to know it is there. Just for in case I damage the beloved red racer.

[Capricorn]

Carbon Ninja: you clearly are bringing deep technical savvy to this debate. but how many others are as qualified and skilled as you? have you considered advocating for standards in the industry, or even developing them as guidelines against which insurance companies and the public can measure quality of service from other carbon repair service vendors?

 

as an aside, have you ever repaired a frame, and subjected it to the same torture tests the original manufacturer subjected the frame to? It's one thing validating standalone layups vs validating a repair in final form. It would go a very long way to dispelling any concerns the public when faced with the risk of voiding a warranty with years left on the clock.

[BogusOne]

Not at all, you choose to run a business where you have both confirmed neither of you have PI to cover personal injury due to your work and we must go on trust.... trust that you didn't have a bad day at the office when repairing a bike, possibly my bike !!

Was never a choice to run this as a business. I was forced to due to retrenchments. You are making assumptions without knowing anything about me so rather stop there. As i said in a previous post, i choose my jobs thank you

 

Anyway im sure the OP has received more than enough information on his initial question regarding his bike. I also dont see the company who did the quote on his bike giving any comments here and i do not see why either myself nor Carbon Ninja need to take the brunt of being scrutinised for merely giving a educated opinion. So peace out and have a lekker day 

[shaper]

Uh, shaper... You cannot extrapolate your PI cost to someone in a different industry. It's a vastly different situation for each occupation and in the medical field can run to hundreds of thousands of rands each year.

 

5k p/a is a very low cost for PI cover.

Agreed, we are not discussing medical, we discussing cover for repairing a bike. So highly unlikely to cost the earth.  If you wish to happily defend someone because they claim poverty to not have PI, so be it

 

PI for a bike repair....If fails an injury that can recover from, at worst a fatality. 

 

Similar outcome should a there be design oversight/failure in one of my projects, potential injury else possible multiple deaths at worst case, let alone replacement building cost in my case.

 

PI is what risk cost the insurance company is prepared to charge you to cover that risk, the questionnaire i have to complete covers personal education, years of work, history of work, type of work, work profile, risk factor etc etc.

 

And with all my projects one of the first questions am asked by clients is provide them a copy of my PI cover certificate, else will removed from the project.if cannot.  So maybe people who are being told that the bike will be repaired rather than replaced should also ask/demand for the repairers PI.

 

This might help with raising the standard of the industry and cut out the cowboys that Carbon Ninja was talking of earlier.

Edited November 27, 2019 by shaper

[V12man]

Absolutely Doc (may I call you Doc)?

 

 

No - you may use my given name.... :)

 

It's completely reasonable answer you have and I thank you for not trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes about the realities of carbon repair.

 

As a schoolkid I used to glass and repair surfboards for a couple of well known shapers - the blend of art, science and skill appealed to me then, and still does - in many ways. The advent of carbon composites has significantly complicated things in the intervening years - especially repair - luckily nobody normally dies from a failed surfboard repair.

[MORNE]

The solution to all this handbag swinging is simple i think?.....stop buying plastic bikes  

These lot wont need indemnity insurance and you wont need to have a head tube glued back on lol.

[Sidmouth]

who are you insured with 

[Hairy]

My cover is R5m on hundreds of millions of rands projects, it costs R6k pa.  It is likely you would only need R1m cover, could even be less considering the value of the work, so will likely be a fraction of cost of what I have to pay.

 

The figure you quote is somewhat questionable as Professional insurance is charged annually not monthly.  Perhaps speak to a proper PI company like Aon.

 

At least I now know that should an insurance company want to repair one of my bikes I will ask for the repairers PI to cover for personal liability knowing full well the insurance will not be able to provide it in which case I will reject the repair and request replacement.

I wonder if the building industry PI is less due to the risk being lessened by having safety inspectors on site and a team of experienced main contractors, architects and engineers constantly walking the site and keeping a tab on things.

 

A quick example, I was on a site earlier this year and spotted about 4 stories of scaffolding that looked suspect, a quick whatsapp pic to the structural engineer to confirm my suspicions and we then condemned the scaffolding right away. The scaffolding company was on site a day prior and had inspected / signed off their installation ... so a good thing there were extra eyes on the site.

 

With the carbon repairs I am not sure how the repairer could prove to the insurance companies that they have practiced due diligence as I do not have intimate knowledge their trade/profession. Carbon guys ... do you x-ray or scan your repairs when complete, or do some other form of testing to ensure the bond and repair is 100%?

[shaper]

who are you insured with 

Aon South Africa

[V12man]

My cover is R5m on hundreds of millions of rands projects, it costs R6k pa.  It is likely you would only need R1m cover, could even be less considering the value of the work, so will likely be a fraction of cost of what I have to pay.

 

The figure you quote is somewhat questionable as Professional insurance is charged annually not monthly.  Perhaps speak to a proper PI company like Aon.

 

At least I now know that should an insurance company want to repair one of my bikes I will ask for the repairers PI to cover for personal liability knowing full well the insurance will not be able to provide it in which case I will reject the repair and request replacement.

Value of work done has no relation to the claim amount in the medical industry - there is basically no upper limit - lifetime loss of income for Bill Gates would be a difficult pill to swallow for any insurer..

 

If a building drops it's roof on someone and you as designer of the structure are found guilty of negligence, then you are open to massive claims - you may want to relook at your coverage and make sure your legal fees are covered as well as never working in the industry again's expenses.