Future of non-cycling discussion on Bike Hub

[patches]

I can’t believe Chit Chat that insignificant. We are talking about topics like.

 

1. Show us your Pets (430k views)

2. New Zealand Good Bad Ugly

3. Movie Thread

4. Calling all you Gamers

5. Football

6. I have an idea of a new thread (8 million views)

7. Time to get the hell out of here (700k views!!)

8. Post your Woodwork here

9. Aviation Fans

10. Car Porn

11. Is motorcycling allowed

 

Considering the above, probably 90% of what I come to the Forums for as they are either informative or feel good for me....

 

Sure maybe some could be moved but they are all non cycling related at least.

 

For me, it’s simple. Kill the Politics and Religious threads. Strict moderation/banning for those who create or refer to such in any way.

 

3 of those are the threads that I'm most active on, so yeah, it will be sad to lose them.

 

 

I had no idea the chit chat section was such a small % of activity. As a person that uses that area exclusively, it feels like the biggest portion of the hub. I suppose perspective is a wonderful thing.

 

Everything has a season.

 

Too right. I was viewing from the same perspective as you. Perhaps that's partly due to our emigrant status and not being able to benefit from things like the classifieds, events, or group rides.

 

But yeah, it is a cycling forum at the end of the day, and that is why I joined the hub, approx 11 years ago.

 

I came for the cycling. I stayed for the discussion (whatever form that took).

Edited December 7, 2020 by patches

[Stretch]

 

 

I'm going to be contrarian here, and support Matt.

 

I love the Off-topic forums and debates, but this is a cycling forum after all.

 

We're fooling ourselves if we think that talking about politics or F1 or rugby or braai etiquette on the Bike Hub is about like-minded people. In fact, we're anything but like-minded. But we do share a common interest in cycling.

 

Do aviation or camping or cricket forums have an off-topic section where people talk about cycling? I might be mistaken, but I think not.

4x4 forum has an off topic section

Mybroadband has an offtopic section etc etc

 

It's standard fodder for all forums

[Wayne Potgieter]

Just out of curiosity, how many people on here are Reddit users?

[patham]

I just want to add that I only noticed this thread today. If it had been filed under "Off Topic discussions" I would have seen it develop in real time. 

[Shebeen]

Some quick house keeping: This topic has been renamed and split out from Quagga's original question. That's been resolved and is unrelated to this broader discussion. 

 

---

 

This should have been handled quite differently rather than dropping something of a grenade in an unrelated thread. My apologies for the manner in which it was raised and the silence since. It's an important topic for me personally and one I've not been able to give proper attention to in the last week.

 

The reason for the existence of Chit Chat or non-cycling discussion section on Bike Hub is to build a sense of community away from just bikes. Yes, we're all here because of a common interest in bicycles but bikes aren't all we're about. And for the most part it's served that purpose well for those who wanted to participate. Personally, I feel it served an important role in building the early Bike Hub community and for that reason I've always regarded it as a non-negotiable.

 

More recently though it has been dominated by divisive topics like the US election and Covid-19. From the snippets I've encountered many Hubbers engaging in these discussions have done so in a mature, respectful manner. But unfortunately many others have not. But beyond any individual's conduct, it seems these topics have embedded a level of intolerance and impatience that crosses over into many other cycling related topics. Ultimately this is detrimental to the experience for Hubbers within those sections, many of whom aren't here for the Chit Chat.

 

This raises some questions around WHY the Chit Chat section exists on Bike Hub in 2020. What purpose does it serve now? How does it add value to the broader community of Hubbers. And while it's not the first time we've questioned this, it's perhaps the first time removing it has been seriously considered.

 

If we look at it purely from a numbers perspective: Chit chat accounts for 0.6% of our monthly users and 0.9% of our monthly page views, with 3.5% of total forum users participating in or viewing Chit Chat. Simply put, it's not there to generate page views or revenue. It exists with the sole purpose to enhance the community dynamic on Bike Hub. But if it's not serving that purpose or worse having a negative effect on the community, should it still exist?

 

As many have suggested here, outright removal is perhaps extreme. But in the muddy world of online discussions it makes it very clear what should be discussed and what shouldn't. In that sense, it would be the cleanest solution.

 

Other options we've considered:

• Limit topics, e.g. no politics or religion (commonly the most divisive and problematic). It would need some policing but is an option.
• More moderation: based on the numbers this makes zero sense from a business perspective. Volunteer moderators are an option, but still require a level of input in oversight & assistance that's just not justified from a business perspective.
• No moderation (free for all in these sections): We're not far from that currently... it doesn't work. No matter how many warning signs there are, the scars from those unfettered battles will affect the cycling related discussion.

From a pure numbers perspective it looks pretty simple, yet this is something I've grappled with. Even a fraction of a % represents a meaningful number of people, many of whom I'd regard as "founding members". Names I've come to know over a decade and a half, some even in person. However, sentiment alone can't be the reason to hold on to it.

 

Bike Hub has grown into something far beyond its humble beginnings as "just a forum". It serves a wide audience of diverse people who visit the site predominantly to buy, sell, discuss or learn about bikes. As tough as it will be, as it continues to grow and evolve there may well be some parts of the "old Bike Hub" that we have to let go of.

I suppose there are your two big unknowns:

 - is 2020 just an anomoly, people are on edge. will biden and a vaccine chill people out?

- would taking away "off topic" also remove the nastiness, or will it just move to the main threads. instead of Trump vs nonTrump will we see the same polarisation in a campy/shimano thread?

 

I for one see this as a community of diverse people with an interest in rolling on two wheels. i come here for cycling chat, but take away some perspectives from other users on topics that go well beyond that. I'm currently not on twitter/reddit and this/facebook is my home for internet discussions. I'm a lurker at mybroadband and if the offtopic went away i might just switch my time spent between the two around (who knows really?). 

 

That being said, you are actually “a dictator”. A nice benevolent one (the best kind) that doesn’t just do things without considering the consequences. I trust your judgement to do the right thing with this monster you’ve created.

[Albatross]

But we want to know what happens to Bonus & Wendy.....

[mecheng89]

two things please 

 

1. Do not lose the off topic threads

2. Bring back comments on the classifieds 

Thank you. no clue why it was closed in the first place! Abuse? Spam? 

[TNT1]

There are times it's better to say nothing.... 

I have yet to stumble upon one of those times.

[TNT1]

4x4 forum has an off topic section

Mybroadband has an offtopic section etc etc

 

It's standard fodder for all forums

I can't speak for any others, but mybb has very strict moderation which I think is how it survives. The off topic areas can become a bit of a wild west scenario, but the on topic sections are moderated and you will often see users warned and posts removed if they contravene the forum rules in the on topic sections. 

 

It works for them, but I do think it requires a large input of manpower.

[River Rat]

I am a frequent poster on off topic threads I also use Chit Chat to post some of my stories which are not always cycling related.I do both because I find there are a lot of like minded  people who find the same topics of interest as I do.  However, I guess if there's no place for off topic threads then it would follow that I should not post non-cycling related stories either. It would be a pity for me but perhaps welcomed by others depending whether you enjoy what I write or not. I have often thought about creating a blog of my own to air my stories so this might just nudge me in that direction, but the thought of being an administrator of sorts is rather off putting.

 

So, I do respect that Admin has an unenviable task when it comes to moderating heated discussions and I am sure that when it's a non cycling related topic it feels like a waste of time. But it comes down to what is the metric that drives revenue, I am unfamiliar with the business model but I would guess that it's traffic and what would that be if it is cycling related only. I have no idea if the moderation of off topic threads is worth the traffic gain or not, but in the end that's going to be the call that Admin has to make.

 

Good luck.

[Chris_]

I'm surprised how often mybroadband has come up. (not just this thread but in the past too) The 4x4 one too but I assume is quite specialised, although I've never looked.

 

I can't believe people are part of multiple *off-topic* forums, thats a lot of energy to give to going-nowhere-arguments - BH alone often defeats me...

[Shebeen]

I am a frequent poster on off topic threads I also use Chit Chat to post some of my stories which are not always cycling related.I do both because I find there are a lot of like minded  people who find the same topics of interest as I do.  However, I guess if there's no place for off topic threads then it would follow that I should not post non-cycling related stories either. It would be a pity for me but perhaps welcomed by others depending whether you enjoy what I write or not. I have often thought about creating a blog of my own to air my stories so this might just nudge me in that direction, but the thought of being an administrator of sorts is rather off putting.

 

So, I do respect that Admin has an unenviable task when it comes to moderating heated discussions and I am sure that when it's a non cycling related topic it feels like a waste of time. But it comes down to what is the metric that drives revenue, I am unfamiliar with the business model but I would guess that it's traffic and what would that be if it is cycling related only. I have no idea if the moderation of off topic threads is worth the traffic gain or not, but in the end that's going to be the call that Admin has to make.

 

Good luck.

 

 

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

https://community.bikehub.co.za/topic/187515-a-red-dog-on-an-orange-river/?do=findComment&comment=3742540

[Bateleur1]

I'm surprised how often mybroadband has come up. (not just this thread but in the past too) The 4x4 one too but I assume is quite specialised, although I've never looked.

 

I can't believe people are part of multiple *off-topic* forums, thats a lot of energy to give to going-nowhere-arguments - BH alone often defeats me...

 

Well that just it.  I simply do not have the time nor the energy to spend on multiple platforms just for chatting.  If the off topic dicussion are removed I won#t move to another forum.  But I only need to ask so many questions on the hub that are cycling related, and on most things you will find an answer just by searching.  2020 saw very little wrt races and local races.  The commuting thread was virtually standing still as most worked home office.  Only towards the end were there the Grand Tours and most spent their time on there. Nobody sat with their fat asses on the tube of a canyon so we did not even have that debate this year.  So the only real big discussions this year happen to be the US elections and Corona.

[Jewbacca]

I am a frequent poster on off topic threads I also use Chit Chat to post some of my stories which are not always cycling related.I do both because I find there are a lot of like minded  people who find the same topics of interest as I do.  However, I guess if there's no place for off topic threads then it would follow that I should not post non-cycling related stories either. It would be a pity for me but perhaps welcomed by others depending whether you enjoy what I write or not. I have often thought about creating a blog of my own to air my stories so this might just nudge me in that direction, but the thought of being an administrator of sorts is rather off putting.

 

So, I do respect that Admin has an unenviable task when it comes to moderating heated discussions and I am sure that when it's a non cycling related topic it feels like a waste of time. But it comes down to what is the metric that drives revenue, I am unfamiliar with the business model but I would guess that it's traffic and what would that be if it is cycling related only. I have no idea if the moderation of off topic threads is worth the traffic gain or not, but in the end that's going to be the call that Admin has to make.

 

Good luck.

Pretty much this.

 

This is how I see it. It is not personal or a dig, but just piecing together what I can see and what I have read.

 

If you look at the off topic traffic, it is the same 30 to 40 users.

 

Considering the site attracts thousands of users daily, it is a really small percentage taking up a large amount of man hours and focus.

 

Pair that with the fact that a lot of these users are expats means they aren't really adding to the economy that bikehub creates. So while adding 'traffic', they aren't going to buy a bike from an SA distributer, so the ads/traffic conundrum is largely moot. (I say largely as it is not entirely, before 3 people say 'I am local!).

 

It comes down to the 80/20 scenario, which businesses, especially growing and evolving businesses, have to look at constantly.

 

A bunch of guys being white middle/upper class judge and jury taking up a load of man power, time and effort on non related topics seems like the first thing that needs evaluating.

 

For us it is a place we waste our time on frivolous discussions, arguments and one upmanship, but ultimately it is a business. 

 

Be honest, how many of you actually click on the adverts and buy stuff, use the payment portal, pay to have your ads 'boosted' etc to generate income? (Don't answer, just think about it openly).

 

Anyway, a fair amount of the off topic threads and the petition to bring back comments are quite often just cyber bullying to be honest. I am not absolved of this, but it is often just petty and wrong.

 

Flay me all you like, but I think that the bikehub bosses know where they want to go, have the right 'numbers' to make educated decisions and know that it will disappoint some users. It is not often that change doesn't negatively affect some percentage of those involved, especially when you are looking at numbers in their thousands.

 

I'm sorry if my post offends anyone, it is just my observations, being part of the 'chatterers' I throw myself in with my generalizations.

[MTBeer]

I'm going to be contrarian here, and support Matt.

 

I love the Off-topic forums and debates, but this is a cycling forum after all.  

 

We're fooling ourselves if we think that talking about politics or F1 or rugby or braai etiquette on the Bike Hub is about like-minded people. In fact, we're anything but like-minded. But we do share a common interest in cycling.

 

Do aviation or camping or cricket forums have an off-topic section where people talk about cycling? I might be mistaken, but I think not.   

but Mango, why do we only need to discuss things with like minded people? Isn't part of life interacting with people with opposing views?

 

['Dale]

Tuesday morning thoughts:

 

The trouble with moderation is that it requires moderation even though there are clear community guidelines. How unnecessary. The trouble with moderation is that it is like supervising kids in the zoo to not go and stick their little paws into the snake den (religious topics) or poisonous spiders cage (political debates). How annoying.

 

I would support the 'feel-good' campfire topics, discussions and sharings. The stuff that feels ubuntu.

 

Matt & Co, I would guess, face a tricky strategic decision as hosting also has a fiduciary responsibility in the Internet hosting world - the ongoing rise of misinformation, exploitation, online toxicity and keyboard bullying, etc.

 

As the adage goes, 'one bad apple can spoil the bunch'.