Motorists vs Cyclists.... again

[RobynE 🚵‍♀️]

I don't think we will know what the victims of the incidents were wearing or if they were using lights. It would also be a flawed statistic anyway as we could say, on those days, x amount of cyclists weren’t hit, regardless of what they were wearing/using.

To me it’s not about who was hit. It’s about me trying not to get hit and using whatever tools I have available to me to increase my chances of being seen.

The cheapest tool I have is my mindset, because it’s free. So I use it to look like a flashing beach ball and I hope for the best but never assume that someone has seen me. 

And I know I personally see fellow beach balls (or the more physically gifted candy canes) better than I see anyone or anything in black. It’s because it’s how vision works. 

 

[The Ouzo]

The big problem is mindset of the people behind the wheel.

On my last day at work end of last month, I was sitting around having a chat to a bunch of my now ex colleagues when cyclist came up. Them knowing that I cycled the comments were held back slightly, but the general consensus was that we are a nuisance and should keep off the roads, they dont care if they pass us to close.

I've been around for many years and have had this debate often enough not to get riled up by it, only leaving them with the comment that its just a few second of their commute, be patient and let the guys be.

[Da Vinci]

My observations of a week and a bit of being driven around Cape Town, CampsBay, Stellenbosch and ,of course, Chapmans Peak…

I was thinking of leaving this post until Monday as I am doing a wash, rinse, repeat this weekend again… but seeing as it is fight me Friday, I thought, what the hell.

Note I am on a 33 Seater Coach, a well known branded one.

My colleagues have both been very cool calm collected, measured individuals. Despite people, cars, taxis and some cyclists taking fat, unnecessary chances.

They were not aware of my “allegiance” to cyclists.

Disclaimer: cars, pedestrians, my driver and other HMVs were by no means Angels, but this is a cycling forum 😉

6 out of  10 cyclists ride without a working rear light. An alarming number of these are commuters - and I’m not referring to those on makro specials”  These commuters and morning recreational cyclists in the city don’t appear to be big fans of the “improved and car proofed” green cycling lanes in the city either. Don't get me started on dark clothing… Back D’Ville roads, midwinter mornings….

Out of a group of about 10 - 12 Bunched up in the yellow lane and to the left of yellow line, at least  2 will swerve out to go around another cyclist, without looking or giving any indication of their intention.

1 out of 5 groups will stop at a traffic light.

i didn’t see any stop at a stop street. Nor yield at the mini circles down Houtbay main road. Or the pedestrian crossings.

My driver was reluctant to “warning hoot” a bunch of 5 or 6  we were approaching on Chappies up. I asked why he didn’t to alert them that we were approaching from behind. He said the hooter was too loud and cyclists would generally give him a middle finger if he hooted.

They were oblivious to his approach and not single file but he was quite happy to sit behind them. I thought that giving them a heads up would help them reorganize and let them know that a large vehicle would be passing them.

** Note that when they did international advanced safety driver training for the World Cup  they were told they should be warning hooting for all cyclists, pedestrians they were approaching. I remember the husband’s comment at the time was something along the lines of: How to get your driver assaulted for just doing his job!

On the descent to Noordhoek, one decided to undertake, another decided to overtake, narrowly missing a car coming from the front….

By no means were all the riders bad or bad mannered. We had one guy acknowledge with a hand wave that the bus waited behind him so he could comfortably ride in the middle of the lane going through Clifton. “Adopt the Safest position on the road”

it was a quiet Sunday on Chappies and we were early. The marathon runners going past Cape Point that morning were far more oblivious. My colleague had the patience and reflexes of a ninja 🤣

Oh and 3 out of 5 cars, illegally parked on the bus parking at Stellenbosch museum, on a Saturday, are cyclists. The bike racks give it away….

We cannot paint everything with the same brush, but it is nice to be able to sit back and  observe sometimes.

Safe rolling on the roads this weekend!

Edited August 15, 2025 by Da Vinci

[Shebeen]

2 hours ago, Mamil said:

What a fatuous and frankly offensive comment. If I am ever "taken out" it won't age well at all - or perhaps you will say "Ah well you see, he was wearing a dark blue jersey you see, no wonder"

When I said "you" in the 2nd person, I wasn't saying You(mamil) but You(cyclist). So no, I did not wish for you to get hit. but i do like this top you're wearing here anyways

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Mamil said:

 

This is the problem with the "you must wear bright clothing" line. We have 3 people killed on bikes in the last fortnight and we are talking about what we wear as if it's a significant variable. 

Noone ever changed anyone's mind on an internet forum.

I change my mind all the time, mostly with a position backed up by evidence. Show me some solid research that conclusively says wearing bright clothing/black makes no difference to visibility and I'll concede gracefully. For now it looks like I'm ahead here (but it would appear you're not open to changing your mind).

https://lightingresearchgroup.sites.sheffield.ac.uk/projects/lycra/past-studies-about-cyclist-conspicuity

 

2 hours ago, Mamil said:

As a last comment before I check out of this thread, every near miss I've ever had has been because the driver wasn't even looking at road at all (cell phone, makeup in rear view mirror, veering into cycle lane to avoid stopping behind a car that was turning right) or saw me and simply didn't recognise that I am a human being not a piece of road furniture or an obstacle to be got past with minimal delay.

So using that argument you might as well not even have a light?

 

2 hours ago, Mamil said:

What jersey I put on before the ride would have made no difference at all.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, as this chestnut is not going away.

[Skubarra]

27 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

I change my mind all the time, mostly with a position backed up by evidence. Show me some solid research that conclusively says wearing bright clothing/black makes no difference to visibility and I'll concede gracefully. For now it looks like I'm ahead here (but it would appear you're not open to changing your mind).

https://lightingresearchgroup.sites.sheffield.ac.uk/projects/lycra/past-studies-about-cyclist-conspicuity

 

With respect  if you are indeed  "ahead" it cannot be based on the link you posted which sits very much on the fence with both sides arguments.

I know its fight Friday and its important to win on the internet, but I for one can agree that its good practice to wear high-vis clothing and still acknowledge @Mamil's point that there are many cases distracted drivers will endanger you no matter what you are wearing. I have seen enough social media posts of cars that crashed into brightly coloured bollards to think that we might very well over-estimate the effectiveness of bright colours with regards to visibility.

[RobynE 🚵‍♀️]

So you’re approaching a busy intersection and the lights are out, on three different days. 

On each day, someone is directing traffic. 

Who do you see first - the person wearing the high viz jacket and/or white gloves; the person wearing standard issue metro police fatigues; or the homeless person wearing regular “living on the street” clothes? 

Answer honestly. 

I see the high viz/white glove guy first - every.single.time. 

The fatigues and regular clothes blend into the tarmac/backdrop. 

If high viz wasn’t a thing, it wouldn’t, well, be a thing. 

I’m not trying to win an argument because I don’t think there is an argument for something that is science vs opinion. I’m just a little shook that there are educated, intelligent people who don’t think wearing black places you at higher risk 🤯 

[Shebeen]

1 hour ago, Skubarra said:

With respect  if you are indeed  "ahead" it cannot be based on the link you posted which sits very much on the fence with both sides arguments.

With respect. Your analysis that "it sits on the fence" is entirely incorrect.

Mamil is saying that black is the same as high vis/colours. He is saying there is NO difference.

The studies where relevant all debate the amount of the difference.

 

so for example, the first conclusion:

• Fluorescent/reflective clothing such as a ‘high-vis’ jacket is not very good at increasing a cyclists' visibility/conspicuity to drivers, in particular after dark [Wood et al 2010, Rogé et al 2019].

 

That is still a win for high-vis being better than black.

This is such an easy argument to win, since the question is:"is it easier to see colour than black?".

Next up, do square pegs fit into round holes? 

 

 

1 hour ago, Skubarra said:

I know its fight Friday and its important to win on the internet, but I for one can agree that its good practice to wear high-vis clothing and still acknowledge @Mamil's point that there are many cases distracted drivers will endanger you no matter what you are wearing. I have seen enough social media posts of cars that crashed into brightly coloured bollards to think that we might very well over-estimate the effectiveness of bright colours with regards to visibility.

fair enough. this could be a totally separate point that I'm pretty sure I never disputed the nuances of since we got stuck on the binary question. 

 

 

[ChrisF]

4 hours ago, Mook said:

While I realize that my personal sentiments around Varia would get me cancelled, shot at, ridiculed, etc, my analytical brain tries to replay all cycling related incidents. To the radar disciples, the following questions/statements:

1) Could you share statistical data with me of the ratio of Varia's used in all incidents. Does proof exist that those hit by vehicles used Varia OR not? Could we potentially get to a conclusion that those hit by vehicles did not have radar fitted to their bikes?

2) The typical driver that would hit a cyclist could not be bothered if you have patriot missiles fitted to your bike. Radar is of "use" to the cyclist only. Varia is marketed as an awareness/warning tool, not a safety device, BUT it warns the cyclist ONLY.

3) The amount of cyclists hit inside the yellow road shoulder could potentially be a damning testament to radar, IF these riders were hit despite having the luxury of radar.

I have many buddies with Varia, many without. I have cycled in many a group with 30-50% using radar, AND it's a disaster with bleeping radars. Every time 1 Varia goes off, everybody goes into emergency preparedness mode with the resultant scares of cyclists taking out each other in their scurry to avoid whatever this thing is approaching from behind.

So, here's my take. If riding solo radar could be a useful warning tool to the cyclist, yet providing a false sense of safety under many conditions. Bright clothing, reflectors and lights remain your best defense mechanisms against distracted drivers.

Visibility remains the ultimate goal.

PS: You don't have to agree with me, but please keep it civil 🤙

 

Okay .... I will take the bait ....

 

When I bought the Varia on a Black Friday special it made financial sense more than anything else.

 

Some random thoughts after a few thousand km :

- The battery life sucks, when you are wanting to do long day rides, i.e. more than 5 hours (obviously not a primary consideration, still it should be easier to manage this ...)

 

- The beeper drove me crazy on the first ride !!  When commuting to work or cycling along Bottelary road you WILL encounter hundreds of vehicles !!!  A non-stop beeper quickly looses any relevance.  Bit of a shlep, but you can mute it ... pit that you cant un-mute it quickly (one-button) for hazardous sections.

 

- The indicator lines on the bike computer is my "mirror", tracking cars from about 140m.  So I can now track vehicles behind me, while concentrating on what is happening ahead of me.  Riding towards Philladelphia (no shoulder) I can see a vehicle approaching, and then quickly scan my computer to check for vehicles coming from behind.  I can now make an informed decision on the traffic and my response.

 

- The Varia has an auto-adjusting flash rate as a vehicle catches up to you.  When I am driving it is so easy to spot the Varia users as the changing flash rate "helps" to grab your attention.  THIS is probably at the heart of your question ..... I know that I am doing what I can to improve my odds ....

Disclaimer - NOTHING will help when a driver is "not paying attention"

 

- Back to the battery life ... every so often the Varia decides to switch "off", i.e. the light is off but starts its adaptable flash mode as a vehicle is closer than 140m .... thats about 7 seconds when a vehicle is traveling at 100km/h and you are cycling at 30km/h in the same direction ..... time wise probably okay, but a cheap flashing light can be seen long before that ..... When commuting I use a standard flashing light + the Varia

 

- Clear to say that I do support the use of a Varia, but I am by no means a blind follower .... certainly room for improvement

 

All things considered .... the Varia does not mount well on the full suspension bike (the base of the dropper post means the Varia is too low and the tyre drastically reduce the effectiveness of the radar .... I feel uncomfortable and exposed on this bike with traffic around me.

 

 

 

Different approach .... ONE ride with the Varia and @Zebra also bought a radar-light (different brand).  Its just one of those things where you use it once and you are sold on it.

[cadenceblur]

18 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

 

Okay .... I will take the bait ....

 

When I bought the Varia on a Black Friday special it made financial sense more than anything else.

 

Some random thoughts after a few thousand km :

- The battery life sucks, when you are wanting to do long day rides, i.e. more than 5 hours (obviously not a primary consideration, still it should be easier to manage this ...)

 

- The beeper drove me crazy on the first ride !!  When commuting to work or cycling along Bottelary road you WILL encounter hundreds of vehicles !!!  A non-stop beeper quickly looses any relevance.  Bit of a shlep, but you can mute it ... pit that you cant un-mute it quickly (one-button) for hazardous sections.

 

- The indicator lines on the bike computer is my "mirror", tracking cars from about 140m.  So I can now track vehicles behind me, while concentrating on what is happening ahead of me.  Riding towards Philladelphia (no shoulder) I can see a vehicle approaching, and then quickly scan my computer to check for vehicles coming from behind.  I can now make an informed decision on the traffic and my response.

 

- The Varia has an auto-adjusting flash rate as a vehicle catches up to you.  When I am driving it is so easy to spot the Varia users as the changing flash rate "helps" to grab your attention.  THIS is probably at the heart of your question ..... I know that I am doing what I can to improve my odds ....

Disclaimer - NOTHING will help when a driver is "not paying attention"

 

- Back to the battery life ... every so often the Varia decides to switch "off", i.e. the light is off but starts its adaptable flash mode as a vehicle is closer than 140m .... thats about 7 seconds when a vehicle is traveling at 100km/h and you are cycling at 30km/h in the same direction ..... time wise probably okay, but a cheap flashing light can be seen long before that ..... When commuting I use a standard flashing light + the Varia

 

- Clear to say that I do support the use of a Varia, but I am by no means a blind follower .... certainly room for improvement

 

All things considered .... the Varia does not mount well on the full suspension bike (the base of the dropper post means the Varia is too low and the tyre drastically reduce the effectiveness of the radar .... I feel uncomfortable and exposed on this bike with traffic around me.

 

 

 

Different approach .... ONE ride with the Varia and @Zebra also bought a radar-light (different brand).  Its just one of those things where you use it once and you are sold on it.

Yeah, all good points

I generally charge mine post every long ride so have not had it go flat on me. 

I have had one for years, first the original unit that had the string of lights

I feel lost without it and I am actually seeing a lot more cyclists with them these days. 
Perhaps look at a saddle mount for the MTB if your set allows? 
I’ve seen guys with saddle bags also use them . 

[Mamil]

I will permit myself the label scientist - and perhaps qualify it with the prefix social. So I know a little bit about perception, sensory inputs, concentration, attention and so on an I know how to read a scientific paper. As an aside, I have noticed how the appeal to science or to research carries a lot of rhetorical force in debates these days, perhaps in the way appeals to religion and canon used to in another era.

I'll look into it further but a brief internet search suggests that the research is equivocal on the topic which makes sense to me because sensory perception is mediated by a number of personal and situational variables which confound the common sense notion that a bright jersey will attract attention to a level sufficient to produce a measurable difference in accidents and deaths. As an example of this complexity - I observed earlier, and I can't find the reference now, that wearing hi viz yellow unconsciously leads drivers to classify us as a bollard or as road furniture. Someone says "Good, I avoid road furniture". Actually what's happening there in the interface between emotion, perception, attribution and behaviour, is that the driver sees us as not human and is therefore more likely to take a risk to get past us.

The assertion that bright colours will attract attention belies an enormous complexity of interacting factors that occurs between the image hitting the retina and the response to that image.

Here's an example of an equivocal finding

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25085469/

reading a few other abstracts it seems that in dark conditions, reflective clothing produces statisitically significant positive outcomes. Bright clothing in bright conditions - evidence is mixed to the point where the strength with which okes here are defending it's use suggests to me that the bright colours are something of a talisman, a safety blanket in the face of a danger over which there is little control.

What is overwhelmingly clear is that driver attention and awareness is the most significant variable at play on the roads.

And this is where my objection to this "clothing colour really matters" debate is that it has a social effect. It steers the conversation away from the biggest determinants of the danger and becomes part of a broader set of ideas in the public that we shouldn't be on the road, and that a cyclist is responsible for being seen rather than a driver being responsible for seeing us.

 

 

 

 

[RobynE 🚵‍♀️]

I don’t have a Varia but I have many iterations of flashing lights lol. 

My main take from anything involving a screen is that your attention is taken to the screen. Which, we could argue, is not too different to a phone user’s attention being taken to their screen. 

So my (mine alone) approach is to avoid anything that could take my attention off the road, when I’m on the public road. While looking like only one less wheel and a slightly larger nose would get me a job at the circus. 

[ChrisF]

36 minutes ago, cadenceblur said:

Yeah, all good points

I generally charge mine post every long ride so have not had it go flat on me. 

I have had one for years, first the original unit that had the string of lights

I feel lost without it and I am actually seeing a lot more cyclists with them these days. 
Perhaps look at a saddle mount for the MTB if your set allows? 
I’ve seen guys with saddle bags also use them . 

 

The Varia fits perfectly to the gravel bike and the hardtail.

 

I may end up making a jig to fit the Varia to the saddle bag on the full-suss.  But I only do shorter distance on tar with this bike .... so not a priority .... and yet each time I ride without it I "feel" it.

[Mook]

24 minutes ago, Mamil said:

 

What is overwhelmingly clear is that driver attention and awareness is the most significant variable at play on the roads.

And this is where my objection to this "clothing colour really matters" debate is that it has a social effect. It steers the conversation away from the biggest determinants of the danger and becomes part of a broader set of ideas in the public that we shouldn't be on the road, and that a cyclist is responsible for being seen rather than a driver being responsible for seeing us.

 

 

 

 

This 👌

We made it to Friday guys 🥳

[Sepia]

6 hours ago, Mamil said:

So, here's my take. If riding solo radar could be a useful warning tool to the cyclist, yet providing a false sense of safety under many conditions. Bright clothing, reflectors and lights remain your best defense mechanisms against distracted drivers.

Visibility remains the ultimate goal.

Agreed 100%.  I ride with a Varia all the time and it is a warning to me only and I must take any action if needed because I cannot trust a vehicle to have seen me or if they are able to take evasive action. (on the phone etc) It is just another safety feature used in conjunction  with bright clothing. I also have a Bobtrager Ion just to be extra cautious.

[Prince Albert Cycles]

Some arguments on this thread is not unlike the argument that because criminals should not break into our properties and attack murder and rob us we should not install alarms burglar proofing etc. 

[Zebra]

A SINGLE ride on @ChrisF Revolt, fitted with the Varia Radar, awoke me to the incredible awareness that radar creates…

As a life-long cyclist, radar simply was not on my, er, radar!
 

But, test-riding his bike up Chappies, on a busy Sat/Sun, reinforced how useful it could be as an ADDITIONAL TOOL (common-sense STILL applies…), I bought the Revolt the following week, and after that, Cycle Lab had the Chinese product (Magicshine L508), on a DEEP special, R1999, and after reading 3 overwhelmingly supportive reviews, i bought it, and never looked back….

Thanks, @ChrisF, and thanks Magicshine; money WELL spent!