Motorists vs Cyclists.... again

[justinafrika]

21 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

I'm certainly not advocating that pillock behaviour by cyclists should be embraced but i am bringing context to the different consequences. Pillocks will always be with us

A cyclist behaving badly kills no one. A motorist behaving badly kills many people.

When i ask cyclists about riding two abreast many say its safer i.e. they believe its a defensive strategy. Some okes ride in the middle of the road to avoid glass and other road detritis, yet in the eyes of the motorist if the cyclist is not riding in the gutter they are getting in the way. my riding defensively was viewed as me breaking the law because I wasn't all the way over to the left.

Motorists have a perception problem grounded in their belief that the road belongs to them because they have a license disc/feel superiority complex and reinforced by outdated legislation ( that our lobby groups seem to ignore in terms of driving suitable revision).

????

Ndiyabulela.

I think our approach should follow a consideration of impact wrt least potential for both personal and environmental harm. Right of way should favour pedestrians, then cyclists, buses and taxis (for efficient bulk transport considerations), cars, and then trucks. Evoques, M6's and G-series last… ????

In my region minibus taxis are far less aggressive than I’ve found is the case in Gauteng and Limpopo and even worse in KwaZumaNatal.  In E Cape and W Cape they’re much less aggressive.  At any rate, after pedestrians and cyclists I happily accede to taxis pulling into traffic as they often do to me.  Less aggression/more patience all around is the answer imo.

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Matt
Removed Offensive Language

[jackievs]

8 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

True Chris, very true and here's the but.

Despite this inconsiderate behaviour, these cyclists don't kill drivers.

I'll give you an example of defensive cycling.

Cycling down main road lakeside past the French petrol station, I'm on the left side about 50cm off the curb. The road is wode enough for two cars to squeeze past each other without crossing the dashed line. Up ahead a car is stationary and looking for an opportunity to turn right toward the PnP. The gap on the left of the car is wide enough for another car to slip into. The car behind me is now accelerating to get into that gap ahead of me but is still some 20m further back. At my speed the car and I will arrive at the gap at the same time. If I slow then the car get through but those behind it will follow squeezing my off my bike and onto the pavement or I have to come to a stop. I move over to the right a full metre so I'm no in the centre of the left lane.

Motorist jumps on the long horn.....

True, cyclists are not a threat to the safety of motorists in whatever way or form... the only interference IMHO it causes with a motorist is a test of their tolerance, patience, sense of sharing the road with other users, including cyclists.  I read the posts above about groups and cyclists riding wide.. PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOW REFERRING SPECIFICALLY TO RIDING IN THE CRADLE ... this is one of the few, if not the only area I know, where cyclists can and should have the safety to ride wider... what is the rush of motorists to race through the Cradle ... this is not a highway or freeway.. I so often experience motorists with bicycles on the rack behind their cars, having just completed their own rides then drive at speeds exceeding the speed limit past riders still on the road, which is 60km/h along many of sections.. why can't we all not try to exercise a bit more patience and drive in a way that we contribute to safety to all using the road in the Cradle?  I try MOST OF THE TIME to ride left of the yellow line when a vehicle approaches from behind, have a little rear view mirror on my handle bar.... frequently the car's left wheel touches the yellow line next to me... there is no oncoming traffic, why not drive a little wider of the rider?  In some instances I also need to avoid pieces of broken glass bottles on the shoulder and forced to momentary ride to the right of the yellow line... How much effort does it take from a motorist to veer slightly to the right??  I have frequently been one of the few riders in the Cradle early on a cold morning this winter, going downhill from Bidon to the traffic circle at the bottom of Rhino, a lady in a Fortuner screams up the hill in the opposite direction, overtaking another vehicle with the wheels of the Fortuner touching the yellow line on my side of the road and forces me to the extreme left hand side of the shoulder almost completely off the road .. this section has a speed limit of 60km/h.  This happened more than once with different drivers but I have encountered the lady driver in her Fortuner on several occasions... I would love to have a conversation with her and ask why she can't wait a few seconds longer and overtake the other car once they have passed the cyclist going in the opposite direction...??? Why overtake another car in a section where the speed limit is 60km/h?  I believe this type of behaviour goes beyond free-flowing traffic.. this I think is a reflection of aggression.. we are in many ways a strange society... this and the behaviour of many motorists I believe is also bolstered by hiding behind anonymity .. I will do it because it is unlikely that I will be identified and I can get away with it... sad sad sad!

[jackievs]

8 hours ago, ouzo said:

commuting taught to me ride defensively. Not aggressively mind you, but defend my piece of tar and make sure I get noticed.

Small things like on a left hand bend, move further away from the pavement so that you can be seen. Like your example above, move to the middle of the road to make sure you dont get taken out by the following cars.

But courteous for the most part, thank cars for waiting for you at intersections even though the law says they MUST wait.

 

I've also learnt to keep the hand gestures and swearing to myself as its just not worth it.

I agree... and do the same!  Ride defensively !!!  As a cyclists you are so vulnerable and rather try to be safer through your own actions then relying on the goodwill and courteous behaviour of aggressive drivers own our roads.. and I am not referring only to the frustrated accountants in their Fortuners!  

[jackievs]

21 hours ago, justinafrika said:

????

Ndiyabulela.

I think our approach should follow a consideration of impact wrt least potential for both personal and environmental harm. Right of way should favour pedestrians, then cyclists, buses and taxis (for efficient bulk transport considerations), cars, and then trucks. Evoques, M6's and G-series last… ????

In my region minibus taxis are far less aggressive than I’ve found is the case in Gauteng and Limpopo and even worse in KwaZumaNatal.  In E Cape and W Cape they’re much less aggressive.  At any rate, after pedestrians and cyclists I happily accede to taxis pulling into traffic as they often do to me.  Less aggression/more patience all around is the answer imo.

Hmm... I think this applies to most those screaming in their Porches and Mustangs through the Cradle .. oh and also quite applicable to those on their super bikes!

[jackievs]

10 hours ago, ChrisF said:

And yet we can b!tch and moan about "drivers" .... but so many of us continue to ride in a manner that blocks free flowing traffic ...

 

 

Sadly yes, going to take a LOT of "education" to get our fellow cyclists to behave better on the roads .....

Can I please ask you to quote where these incidences occurred that cyclists impeded free-flowing traffic and on what days of the week?... I do 99% of my riding in the Cradle which as you know is not a highway or freeway .. it is frequented by cyclists on eery dat of the week.. if a motorists is in a hurry to rush somewhere, I think good advice is to avoid the roads / areas known to be used by cyclists...a little planning goes a long way to make the roads a little safer to all its users, including cyclists.  And yes I actively ride defensively when I cycle!  Drivers in SA need to be educated on an evolutionary scale.... won't happen in your or my life times!  I witness behaviour of drivers in SA on a daily basis that when committed in most European countries will result in the suspension of their drivers license! But unfortunately not here... Yes drivers in SA need education that is beyond the scope of our imagination! Sad...sad... sad! 

[The Ouzo]

8 hours ago, jackievs said:

True, cyclists are not a threat to the safety of motorists in whatever way or form... the only interference IMHO it causes with a motorist is a test of their tolerance, patience, sense of sharing the road with other users, including cyclists.  I read the posts above about groups and cyclists riding wide.. PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOW REFERRING SPECIFICALLY TO RIDING IN THE CRADLE ... this is one of the few, if not the only area I know, where cyclists can and should have the safety to ride wider... what is the rush of motorists to race through the Cradle ... this is not a highway or freeway.. I so often experience motorists with bicycles on the rack behind their cars, having just completed their own rides then drive at speeds exceeding the speed limit past riders still on the road, which is 60km/h along many of sections.. why can't we all not try to exercise a bit more patience and drive in a way that we contribute to safety to all using the road in the Cradle?  I try MOST OF THE TIME to ride left of the yellow line when a vehicle approaches from behind, have a little rear view mirror on my handle bar.... frequently the car's left wheel touches the yellow line next to me... there is no oncoming traffic, why not drive a little wider of the rider?  In some instances I also need to avoid pieces of broken glass bottles on the shoulder and forced to momentary ride to the right of the yellow line... How much effort does it take from a motorist to veer slightly to the right??  I have frequently been one of the few riders in the Cradle early on a cold morning this winter, going downhill from Bidon to the traffic circle at the bottom of Rhino, a lady in a Fortuner screams up the hill in the opposite direction, overtaking another vehicle with the wheels of the Fortuner touching the yellow line on my side of the road and forces me to the extreme left hand side of the shoulder almost completely off the road .. this section has a speed limit of 60km/h.  This happened more than once with different drivers but I have encountered the lady driver in her Fortuner on several occasions... I would love to have a conversation with her and ask why she can't wait a few seconds longer and overtake the other car once they have passed the cyclist going in the opposite direction...??? Why overtake another car in a section where the speed limit is 60km/h?  I believe this type of behaviour goes beyond free-flowing traffic.. this I think is a reflection of aggression.. we are in many ways a strange society... this and the behaviour of many motorists I believe is also bolstered by hiding behind anonymity .. I will do it because it is unlikely that I will be identified and I can get away with it... sad sad sad!

 

HOLY WALL OF TEXT BATMAN !

Can we club together and buy this guy a new enter key please.

[Robbie Stewart]

9 hours ago, jackievs said:

True, cyclists are not a threat to the safety of motorists in whatever way or form... the only interference IMHO it causes with a motorist is a test of their tolerance, patience, sense of sharing the road with other users, including cyclists.  I read the posts above about groups and cyclists riding wide.. PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOW REFERRING SPECIFICALLY TO RIDING IN THE CRADLE ... this is one of the few, if not the only area I know, where cyclists can and should have the safety to ride wider... what is the rush of motorists to race through the Cradle ... this is not a highway or freeway.. I so often experience motorists with bicycles on the rack behind their cars, having just completed their own rides then drive at speeds exceeding the speed limit past riders still on the road, which is 60km/h along many of sections.. why can't we all not try to exercise a bit more patience and drive in a way that we contribute to safety to all using the road in the Cradle?  I try MOST OF THE TIME to ride left of the yellow line when a vehicle approaches from behind, have a little rear view mirror on my handle bar.... frequently the car's left wheel touches the yellow line next to me... there is no oncoming traffic, why not drive a little wider of the rider?  In some instances I also need to avoid pieces of broken glass bottles on the shoulder and forced to momentary ride to the right of the yellow line... How much effort does it take from a motorist to veer slightly to the right??  I have frequently been one of the few riders in the Cradle early on a cold morning this winter, going downhill from Bidon to the traffic circle at the bottom of Rhino, a lady in a Fortuner screams up the hill in the opposite direction, overtaking another vehicle with the wheels of the Fortuner touching the yellow line on my side of the road and forces me to the extreme left hand side of the shoulder almost completely off the road .. this section has a speed limit of 60km/h.  This happened more than once with different drivers but I have encountered the lady driver in her Fortuner on several occasions... I would love to have a conversation with her and ask why she can't wait a few seconds longer and overtake the other car once they have passed the cyclist going in the opposite direction...??? Why overtake another car in a section where the speed limit is 60km/h?  I believe this type of behaviour goes beyond free-flowing traffic.. this I think is a reflection of aggression.. we are in many ways a strange society... this and the behaviour of many motorists I believe is also bolstered by hiding behind anonymity .. I will do it because it is unlikely that I will be identified and I can get away with it... sad sad sad!

TL;DR

 

[JA-Q001]

14 hours ago, Eddy Gordo said:

Diep river, bergvliet main road. Esp down victoria road, last weekend was disgusting, guys jumped a red light and proceeded to take up the whole lane up the bridge. I was behind a van at the time, the drive gave a light toot for them to move, but they didnt and then the bakkie went into oncoming traffic to get past. One group braking the law and forcing others to do so as well. Anyway, this topic will never change, there will always be these kinds of incidents. 

I value myself and cycle with care, its clear most others are just out there to do as they please and cant be bothered if they will make it home to their families.

Firstly, I am not condoning the cyclists and riding like that even frustrates me when Im cycling.

But NOBODY is FORCING the Van driver to break the law , overtaking (probably over a solid line) and endangering Himself, other motorists and the cyclists, with his choice of being impatient and reckless. It was still his choice, no matter what obstacle is in his way, be it a skedonk, moortoe Taxi, donky car, trolly surfer, drunkard walking or a cyclist.

Edited August 11, 2021 by JA-Q001

[Jewbacca]

8 minutes ago, JA-Q001 said:

Firstly, I am not condoning the cyclists and riding like that even frustrates me when Im cycling.

But NOBODY is FORCING the Van driver to break the law , overtaking (probably over a solid line) and endangering Himself, other motorists and the cyclists, with his choice of being impatient and reckless. It was still his choice, no matter what obstacle is in his way, be it a skedonk, moortoe Taxi, donky car, trolly surfer, drunkard walking or a cyclist.

This.... The amount of times cars just swerve into on coming traffic to avoid stopped taxis or stationary obstacles in the road is astounding. 

This coupled by cockpit swear words that only the driver and those in their car hear and general grumbliness which probably effects their entire day. The kids in the car grow up hearing the outrage, the sweariness and the general superior attitude so embrace this as being normal.

They grow up feeling they are entitled to the roads and all other road users are just in the way.

The cycle won't end until the attitude of the road users change. I am going out on a limb here to say that almost everyone reading this has been guilty of the above to some degree. Until this changes and we can break the cycle, our kids and their friends will all grow up intolerant.

Kids pick up on everything.  

[Patchelicious]

Ok, so if its makes no difference being inconsiderate or considerate when you cycle, why not er on the latter and be a positive contributor to society. 

 

 

[JA-Q001]

Well, that would depend mostly of off your upbringing. Most people think they deserve everything more than others.

[Eldron]

The othering is always fun to watch. It's the motorists, the rich people,  the entitled, the hot cars, the other people.

Breaking news - we are the people.

[Jewbacca]

12 minutes ago, Eldron said:

The othering is always fun to watch. It's the motorists, the rich people,  the entitled, the hot cars, the other people.

Breaking news - we are the people.

Exactly. It's a collective effort. 

I have to remind myself daily to stop the grumblings and hand throwing while in the car and exercise woosa and patience.

My son and I are better off for it and it is massively noticeable to my day when I get it right. Other days when I haven't given myself enough time to get somewhere, am late, stressed and in a rush it takes much self control and conscious thought to tell myself that it's my own fault I'm late, stressed and in a rush, not the taxi, not the cyclist, not the old person etc....

My fault, my poor time management and my own self importance that blinds me to the fact that everyone else on the road is not there to hinder me but are all just bumbling through the day doing things AS important to them as I am to me. 

We all need to constantly check our behaviour, as the tension and the underlying aggression won't change if we all keep going the way we are.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Jewbacca

[MTBeer]

3 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

Exactly. It's a collective effort. 

I have to remind myself daily to stop the grumblings and hand throwing while in the car and exercise woosa and patience.

My son and I are better off for it and it is massively noticeable to my day when I get it right. Other days when I haven't given myself enough time to get somewhere, am late, stressed and in a rush it takes much self control and conscious thought to tell myself that it's my own fault I'm late, stressed and in a rush, not the taxi, not the cyclist, not the old person etc....

My fault, my poor time management and my own self importance that blinds me to the fact that everyone else on the road is not there to hinder me but are all just bumbling through the day doing things AS important to them as I am to me. 

We all need to constantly check our behaviour, as the tension and the underlying aggression won't change if we all keep going the way we are.

ja but some people drive like little richards and deserve the odd up-yours no matter how much time you have given yourself

sorry can't find the light hearted don't take me too seriously font

[ChrisF]

2 hours ago, JA-Q001 said:

Firstly, I am not condoning the cyclists and riding like that even frustrates me when Im cycling.

But NOBODY is FORCING the Van driver to break the law , overtaking (probably over a solid line) and endangering Himself, other motorists and the cyclists, with his choice of being impatient and reckless. It was still his choice, no matter what obstacle is in his way, be it a skedonk, moortoe Taxi, donky car, trolly surfer, drunkard walking or a cyclist.

 

wroooonnnggggg .... 

 

 

Or rather, a VERY one sided view.

 

The "van driver" is probably on the clock, and will get an ear full for "taking his time" to finish his work.  I drive a lot for work, and YES I plan for the odd delay, but being deliberately held up by a GROUP of riders is not a nice situation.  I emphasize GROUP, as it is easy enough to pass a single rider when the conditions allow. 

 

 

NOTE - I am NOT condoning the "van driver" breaking the law !!  Just pointing out that "owning the road in a group ride" actually has concequences for others on the road.

 

 

 

O-well, I should know better ..... groups will behave like groups ....irate motorists will keep bad mouthing all cyclists ..... and the next car over a blind rise we will just repeat this series of posts .....

[eala]

16 hours ago, justinafrika said:

That’s nuts, right!? Cue Jack Nicholson voice: “Why can’t we just all get along?”  But seriously, as a cyclist I don’t impede any other road users and as a driver I decided at least a decade ago to drive defensively and to never be impatient in any traffic no matter what anyone else did.  I chose to NEVER get angry or even irritated in the least, it is a choice after all.  (Full disclosure: Physically I’m a bigass 57 year old in great shape who hasn’t yet been bettered when attacked or while physically defending friends and loved ones, even during a violent home invasion).  

Getting pissed off achieves zero. Traffic life has been completely chilled for me since that decision, a breeze.

Very well said ! I have the same attitude nowadays . If i am late somewhere i apologize and plan better for the next time .I even give way to taxis .Live over the trouble and not in it !!. I have decided not to be the D@#S in the bakkie