Shimano Launch All-New 12-Speed Deore Groupset

[Wayne pudding Mol]

Pricing aside I would hope that the 12 speed Shimano range is fantastic - after all they’ve had so much extra time to develop it

Incremental improvement is easier than innovation

I’m sure Sram will raise the bar and Shimano will have to start over

[sirmoun10goat]

I wonder what will be next. SRAM recently released their 12sp road, so I can’t see them looking at 13sp. And there are so many variations of other brand 12sp cassettes, from 9t to 52t. Maybe an eagle v2, with some refinement to the internals, for some ‘shifting enhancements’?

[BaGearA]

I can't see mtb drives going 13 spd, the stories I've heard about how finicky it is to get eagle and Shimano (although less stories, but not out that long so fair) absolutely perfect is very hard.

 

Maybe di2 of xtr 12spd is next for Shimano

 

But 13spd won't happen I think

[Grease_Monkey]

I'm going to assume that you are an android fan?

 

Having used SRAM and shimano, and Apple and Android, I reckon the only part of your analogy that holds true is that people are a fan of the one and then prefer that ecosystem.

 

They have different feels due to the different actuation ratios, and people either prefer the solid direct shifting of sram, or the smooth quiet no fuss shifting of shimano. If you like baking then you'll pick sram, if you want a solid workhorse then it's shimano.

 

I've run top end of shimano and the top end of sram, and the bottom end of both. At the top end there isn't much between them but personal preference, but I'll never pick SX or NX over deore. Or at all actually. At the bottom end I've had too many issues with sram build quality and the finickyness of their 11speed when setting the indexing. Gone are the easy setup of SRAMs 10spd systems. Even XO1 has had me vloeking next a workstand. Nee dankie.

100% with you. For low end stuff - stay away from Sram, for high end stuff it's preference.

 

I have run everything from XTR to XO1 to NX, SLX, and deore. In the GX/XT and below "class" Shimano is just streaks ahead. I'd go as saying I'd rather have Deore than GX. With Shimano's lower end groupos you get the same performance as the high end stuff with more weight and less price. As for Sram, my current GX Eagle, previous NX 11speed leaves alot to be desired.

 

As for the high end stuff, I am not going to say one is better than the other, but I prefer the feeling of Sram. I have XO1 11speed on my hardtail, and it has been flawless since 2016. I have just ordered XO1 Eagle (very close to pulling the trigger on AXS, but I just cannot justify that amount of money) to replace the GX Eagle on the Enduro bike. The solid click just works for me, and aesthetically I prefer Sram's gear.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Grease_Monkey

[PhilipV]

I reckon electronic and integration of different systems is where they'll focus next instead of adding another click. And definite refinements of it to follow.

 

Di2 might trickle down to SLX eventually, and AXS will also trickle down.

Shimano might clean Di2 up a bit to catch up to the wireless AXS. Maybe bundle their PRO branded seatpost and bars into Di2 somehow? Maybe route all the Di2 cables through the bar ala Magura so that it looks like a singlespeed.

 

 

I wonder what will be next. SRAM recently released their 12sp road, so I can’t see them looking at 13sp. And there are so many variations of other brand 12sp cassettes, from 9t to 52t. Maybe an eagle v2, with some refinement to the internals, for some ‘shifting enhancements’?

I can't see mtb drives going 13 spd, the stories I've heard about how finicky it is to get eagle and Shimano (although less stories, but not out that long so fair) absolutely perfect is very hard.

 

Maybe di2 of xtr 12spd is next for Shimano

 

But 13spd won't happen I think

[MTB-More]

100% with you. For low end stuff - stay away from Sram, for high end stuff it's preference.

 

I have run everything from XTR to XO1 to NX, SLX, and deore. In the GX/XT and below "class" Shimano is just streaks ahead. I'd go as saying I'd rather have Deore than GX. With Shimano's lower end groupos you get the same performance as the high end stuff with more weight and less price. As for Sram, my current GX Eagle, previous NX 11speed leaves alot to be desired.

 

As for the high end stuff, I am not going to say one is better than the other, but I prefer the feeling of Sram. I have XO1 11speed on my hardtail, and it has been flawless since 2016. I have just ordered XO1 Eagle (very close to pulling the trigger on AXS, but I just cannot justify that amount of money) to replace the GX Eagle on the Enduro bike. The solid click just works for me, and aesthetically I prefer Sram's gear.

 

100%. In my mind I will never go Deore anyways as the XO1 on 11 speed I have is in another league. 

 

For a new person as a entry it might be great and world bending but when you comparing best in class on both brands the entry criteria for me just wont match up. I have had a LOT of issues on XTR 11 speed so personal experience for me was bad even on Shimano's best (Others might have experienced it diffirent) 

 

Replaced a chain needed new Deraleur wheels as it didnt hold onto the chain, Indexing going out at random and jigwire stretching needing readjustment is just to name a few.

 

On my XO1 I have not had any of those or any other. I get on, i get pushing and it works with no fail. Oh Buffelsdrift once on the Rocks to crocks my Crankarm became loose but thats not a fail on their part. I just didnt tighten it to spec when I did the service the previous day.

 

All in all to me when it comes to the high end components SRAM is solid. XTR just gave me endless issues. When looking at mid to lower end I would probably say go for Shimano but then again I dont buy in that range and remember GX was the 1st budget 12 speed and was praised for it and now that there are alternatives years later it magicly became bad. SX and NX should never have been made but neither should Tourney and Altus

Edited May 10, 2020 by MTB-More

[PhilipV]

at the Deore level yes. XTR and XT still run on cup and cone

Having just serviced all my shimano pedals yesterday I'm an unashamed fan of cup and cone bearings. Even the Deore pedals are easy to service if you have the pedal tool.

 

My wife is still running shimano hubs that I rode on in 2006 on one of her bikes. Original bearings that have been maintained.

Edited May 12, 2020 by PhilipV

[ChrisF]

I wonder what will be next. SRAM recently released their 12sp road, so I can’t see them looking at 13sp. And there are so many variations of other brand 12sp cassettes, from 9t to 52t. Maybe an eagle v2, with some refinement to the internals, for some ‘shifting enhancements’?

 

My guess .....

 

54 or larger at the back, down to a 10. .... thus a 36 or larger in the front.

 

 

Keeping the climbing good, but giving more top end without spinning out ....  

[eddy]

My guess .....

 

54 or larger at the back, down to a 10. .... thus a 36 or larger in the front.

 

 

Keeping the climbing good, but giving more top end without spinning out ....

 

I guess it is about time the spinning out vs. climbing performance issue is addressed.

 

Maybe instead of following the hub debates on whether to run a 32 or 36 chain ring, someone will come up with a revolutionary concept of having TWO chain rings - a big one for top end and a small one for climbing - and some way of pushing a lever to move your chain between the two.

 

Just think, you can have a 38-11 or a 26-34 at the press of a button.

 

Maybe the tech to make this happen doesn't exist yet, but one day..... we can dream.

[WaynejG]

I guess it is about time the spinning out vs. climbing performance issue is addressed.

 

Maybe instead of following the hub debates on whether to run a 32 or 36 chain ring, someone will come up with a revolutionary concept of having TWO chain rings - a big one for top end and a small one for climbing - and some way of pushing a lever to move your chain between the two.

 

Just think, you can have a 38-11 or a 26-34 at the press of a button.

 

Maybe the tech to make this happen doesn't exist yet, but one day..... we can dream.

Yeah I can see how a system like this will revolutionise the industry.. ( just checked my bike, I must be a pioneer, already have a system like you describe)

Guess great minds think a like then.

[JCA12]

Yup, and the next revolution might involve a third Chainring, so you can have a revolutionary 620% range (42x11, 22x36). Not sure why the industry hasn't thought of it yet

Edited May 10, 2020 by JCA12

[DieselnDust]

I can't see mtb drives going 13 spd, the stories I've heard about how finicky it is to get eagle and Shimano (although less stories, but not out that long so fair) absolutely perfect is very hard.

 

Maybe di2 of xtr 12spd is next for Shimano

 

But 13spd won't happen I think

 

 

 

 

13 Speed is already available under Rotor:

https://rotorbike.com/1x13-groupset-mtb/

 

So unless Shimano or SRAM buys Rotor Bike fr their patent they won't be going there.

Shimano has a patent for 14speed cassettes and SRAM has patents for internal gearboxes.

 

The nest step for SRAM would have to be lightweight generic internal Gearbox. Shimano's 14 speed patent is going nowhere.

 

SRAM will introduce a refined mechanical 12 speed MTB groupset. Cheaper cassettes and improved shifter.

Cost reduction of their electronic groups will have to come to the party.

 

Shimano 12 speed Dura Ace getting some extra refinement time, electronic groupset coming first?

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I'm really glad we're at this stage of bike development, right now. The future advances should be very good, from where we are at the moment. 

[MORNE]

snip

 

SX and NX should never have been made but neither should Tourney and Altus

your argument lost all validity right there lol. There are a few million bicycles on this earth running those altus and turneys....and like 14 or something people running SX/NX   

Vasts majority of the bicycle using people on earth have never even seen SRAM anything, or deore,slx or xtr for that matter. Us middle class moegoes riding bikes recreationally dont even make up a catfart of the percentage of bicycle users on this planet. 

 It's all altus and turney for them. Agricultiral yes....but also bulletproof and economical. 

 

edit: I took a flawlessly working 3x9 Altus groupo off my wifes bike last year after getting her a 1x11 SLX upgrade kit for dirt cheap. Up to that point that thing work flawlessly....actually better than the 11 speed if you consider how finicky shifting can be on 11 speed groupsets. I took off some ancient and vrot 9 speed XTR stuff on her old mans bicycle and plonked that Altus derailleur on there paired with the old XTR shifter...and it works even better now. I'll use that Altus derailleur before SX etc. Point is...that used to be an XTR or something in any case...its just heavier now. it feels like solid steel and is heavy AF....but thats the point on those things.....when the apocalypse is over...cockroaches will be riding Altus and Turney derailleurs on their steel bikes......and transport them in the back of their land cruisers or toyota camry's....

Edited May 10, 2020 by morneS555

[Grease_Monkey]

13 Speed is already available under Rotor:

https://rotorbike.com/1x13-groupset-mtb/

 

So unless Shimano or SRAM buys Rotor Bike fr their patent they won't be going there.

Shimano has a patent for 14speed cassettes and SRAM has patents for internal gearboxes.

 

The nest step for SRAM would have to be lightweight generic internal Gearbox. Shimano's 14 speed patent is going nowhere.

 

SRAM will introduce a refined mechanical 12 speed MTB groupset. Cheaper cassettes and improved shifter.

Cost reduction of their electronic groups will have to come to the party.

 

Shimano 12 speed Dura Ace getting some extra refinement time, electronic groupset coming first?

 

My guess is focus will be on the development of wireless tech for the next few years, improvement, cost reduction, trickle-down etc.

 

After that I think the next big step will come in the form of wireless internal gearboxes - the tech already exists, it must just be adopted and taken to market by the big boys - and if Sram's patents are anything to go by, they will be first to the party as usual. That is one development I am extremely excited for - we can have belt driven, wireless gearbox bikes - yes please.

[ChrisF]

I guess it is about time the spinning out vs. climbing performance issue is addressed.

 

Maybe instead of following the hub debates on whether to run a 32 or 36 chain ring, someone will come up with a revolutionary concept of having TWO chain rings - a big one for top end and a small one for climbing - and some way of pushing a lever to move your chain between the two.

 

Just think, you can have a 38-11 or a 26-34 at the press of a button.

 

Maybe the tech to make this happen doesn't exist yet, but one day..... we can dream.

 

ag nee man .....

 

bringing facts to a day-dream ....