Future of non-cycling discussion on Bike Hub

[Matt]

Thanks very much.

That helps to put things into a bit better perspective.

 

So roughly 2% of forum users generate over 13% of the forum page views?

 

Is the total forum users stat inclusive of all site-wide users or just the ones who actually visit the forum pages?

Total forum users only includes users who visited the Forum section of the site. 

['Dale]

Fully support Matt's view, perspective and site management on the matter. The user data supports it, which is important. I remember encroachment on the intended existential reason for BikeHub earlier with the 'Women On Bikes' thread (some title like that).

 

I love rigorous debate in a shared growth mindset space. It is illusory that this will happen online. However, too much toxicity, drama, unhealthy ego, attention-seeking, trolling and keyboard warrior reactivity around the Hub Universe. Like Donnie's orange paint have split over onto the threads. Urgh!

 

Many people seem to not realise that words have power, are weapon-like and can hurt. And most of us humans here, if not all, are hurting all over already with the pandemic and other tough stuff out there. 

 

I've made virtual connections here that, over time, have become cool friendships in the real world. Even bought my beloved roadbike here.

 

Life is meant to be lekka, peaceful, adventurous and awesome; at least that is my intention before my feet touch my bedroom floor every morning. I imagine this to be the spirit and ethos of a healthy cycling community, as Matt envisioned it many seasons ago.

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by 'Dale

[gummibear]

For the moment the classifieds get the biggest hits but will that still be the case in 18 months or 2 years?

Facebook market place is growing fast and makes buying and selling so much easier.

 

Just remember why this forum was originally started.

[Stretch]

Even if chit chat is a small percentage.. There's a lot of old and new users that enjoy interacting in that sphere and removing it outright would be short-sighted.

 

This has been a particularly divisive year with controversial things like covid and us elections and brexit coming to a finality. On the whole prior to this the discussions have been reasonably amicable and we will slowly get back to that in due course. If anything I might be partial to a brief period of no politics. We have actually self regulated on the religious discussions and they don't really happen anymore.

 

Outside of gravity and the runners thread I post primarily in:

Tv shows

Movies

Song of the day

General politics

Coronavirus (less so now)

 

I honestly do think there's always a place for all of these as well as all those adhoc threads recognizing someone when they die..or.. Some amazing feat that's being challenged etc etc.

 

If this was only about cycling.. It would be boring and there's lots of virtual friends I wouldn't really interact with anymore

[SwissVan]

Sorry Matt but i cannot bring myself to "Like" your post, the first half yes I like, but the rest (in bold) Uh Uh

 

Basically if i understand it correctly the reasoning behind "cutting down or even completely closing the Off Topic sections"

is because of 

"it seems these topics have embedded a level of intolerance and impatience that crosses over into many other cycling related topics. Ultimately this is detrimental to the experience for Hubbers within those sections, many of whom aren't here for the Chit Chat".

 

I cannot help think that IF this is really the case, then its because of poor forum moderation that its allowed to happen. How often does it really happen?

 

If you close off / hide all the ugly off topic threads then you risk that they will creep into the "On Topic" threads.

 

The key is solid consistent moderation, which sadly the Bike Hub lacks. Moderation is not coming on and occasionally locking threads, no buddy buddy lets turn a blind eye because no one reported it nonsense, but strict and consistent moderation. Otherwise it just becomes the free for all creating this very dilemma you are now dealing with.

 

Its pretty obvious that the Bike Hub focus is on the Classifieds and income generation, which of course is your right and makes sense from your perspective. The point being that you cannot do something (like moderation or the classifieds half heartedly, they have to be done 100% properly). 

 

We know already which way you are leaning 

 

" More moderation: based on the numbers this makes zero sense from a business perspective. Volunteer moderators are an option, but still require a level of input in oversight & assistance that's just not justified from a business perspective"

 

"Bike Hub has grown into something far beyond its humble beginnings as "just a forum". It serves a wide audience of diverse people who visit the site predominantly to buy, sell, discuss or learn about bikes. As tough as it will be, as it continues to grow and evolve there may well be some parts of the "old Bike Hub" that we have to let go of"

 

Improving the moderation should not be mission impossible, provided you are 100% committed to it.

You cant have an internet happy family type forum without it.

 

BTW... how about putting this newly named thread somewhere where it can be easily found and seen?

Not hidden away..... 

 

Some quick house keeping: This topic has been renamed and split out from Quagga's original question. That's been resolved and is unrelated to this broader discussion. 

---

This should have been handled quite differently rather than dropping something of a grenade in an unrelated thread. My apologies for the manner in which it was raised and the silence since. It's an important topic for me personally and one I've not been able to give proper attention to in the last week.

 

The reason for the existence of Chit Chat or non-cycling discussion section on Bike Hub is to build a sense of community away from just bikes. Yes, we're all here because of a common interest in bicycles but bikes aren't all we're about. And for the most part it's served that purpose well for those who wanted to participate. Personally, I feel it served an important role in building the early Bike Hub community and for that reason I've always regarded it as a non-negotiable.

More recently though it has been dominated by divisive topics like the US election and Covid-19. From the snippets I've encountered many Hubbers engaging in these discussions have done so in a mature, respectful manner. But unfortunately many others have not. But beyond any individual's conduct, it seems these topics have embedded a level of intolerance and impatience that crosses over into many other cycling related topics. Ultimately this is detrimental to the experience for Hubbers within those sections, many of whom aren't here for the Chit Chat.

 

This raises some questions around WHY the Chit Chat section exists on Bike Hub in 2020. What purpose does it serve now? How does it add value to the broader community of Hubbers. And while it's not the first time we've questioned this, it's perhaps the first time removing it has been seriously considered.

If we look at it purely from a numbers perspective: Chit chat accounts for 0.6% of our monthly users and 0.9% of our monthly page views, with 3.5% of total forum users participating in or viewing Chit Chat. Simply put, it's not there to generate page views or revenue. It exists with the sole purpose to enhance the community dynamic on Bike Hub. But if it's not serving that purpose or worse having a negative effect on the community, should it still exist?

As many have suggested here, outright removal is perhaps extreme. But in the muddy world of online discussions it makes it very clear what should be discussed and what shouldn't. In that sense, it would be the cleanest solution.

Other options we've considered:

• Limit topics, e.g. no politics or religion (commonly the most divisive and problematic). It would need some policing but is an option.
• More moderation: based on the numbers this makes zero sense from a business perspective. Volunteer moderators are an option, but still require a level of input in oversight & assistance that's just not justified from a business perspective.
• No moderation (free for all in these sections): We're not far from that currently... it doesn't work. No matter how many warning signs there are, the scars from those unfettered battles will affect the cycling related discussion.

From a pure numbers perspective it looks pretty simple, yet this is something I've grappled with. Even a fraction of a % represents a meaningful number of people, many of whom I'd regard as "founding members". Names I've come to know over a decade and a half, some even in person. However, sentiment alone can't be the reason to hold on to it.

Bike Hub has grown into something far beyond its humble beginnings as "just a forum". It serves a wide audience of diverse people who visit the site predominantly to buy, sell, discuss or learn about bikes. As tough as it will be, as it continues to grow and evolve there may well be some parts of the "old Bike Hub" that we have to let go of.

 

[BigDL]

Interesting points made on all sides and I suppose we all have different reasons for visiting. I spend most of my time in the Chit Chat as I learn a huge amount from reading others opinions and I love interacting with South Africans on these subjects. I enjoy the other stuff as well, but mostly the chit chat. As cheesy as it sounds, lots of topics keep me feeling more connected to SA.

 

 

However, it’s Matt’s business what he offers and mine to decide where to spend my time I suppose. Moderation may be an answer but few okes have got time to commit so it may not be the simplest solution.

 

Hope it doesn’t change too much but understand if it does.

[NotSoBigBen]

Must be something wrong with me, my main reason for being here is the cycling discussions and occasional visit/purchase on the classifieds... #SMK

[Pieter1]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR0Gr6qtO3C0AM98A_hOqLoH7lsOW_dUSoDstHsMtXc7bzb29IOTBxwGgUI&feature=youtu.be&v=mfsYSPCNWCw

[Skylark]

I don't see why unpaid moderators in the off topic sections won't work??

 

This forum is unusual in that it doesn't have any whereas the norm is most forums including some enormous ones are policed virtually solely by unpaid moderators/admins.

 

It doesn't make sense for Matt or Nick to moderate the off topic stuff, just watch the forum for a week or 2 and pm a few suitable candidates and take it from there.

 

Problem solved!!

[RocknRolla]

Religion and Politics, are not discussions I normally partake in, not even in real life. I think, if anything it should be completely separated from any other discussions.

 

It's also a choice thing. I'f you don't like it, don't click it, if you do decide to go there, it's not compulsory to type a response.

 

The rest is pretty cool, Like Hairy says, there are some rally cool threads, like the music one, the tv shows and the movies. 

 

The fact that this forum is largely self-moderated speaks volumes, Like Skylark says. Perhaps, open up a discussion about mods, and volunteers and see how it goes from there.

[Long Wheel Base]

Although the threads you point out do each have significant stats, most of these have been accumulated over a number of years. So when we look at the monthly activity relative to the rest of the site it does only account for a small fraction in a given month.

 

 

If we look at the forums only, here are the numbers from November to give you an idea:

 

Off-topic Users as a % of total forum users: 1.96% *** Correction on the 3.5% stat quoted, that was based on a 7 day avg., over 30 days it reduces. 

 

Off-topic Page views as a % of total forum page views: 13.2% 

 

 

When I mention "Chit Chat" I'm referring to all the Off-topic forums in general, including Chit Chat, Current Affairs, etc.

 

Here's a high-level breakdown across the sections for November 2020:

 

Screenshot 2020-12-06 at 08.42.36.png

When I log into bike hub, it takes me straight to classifieds. But I straight away go to the forums without even looking at the classifieds(the only time I go into classifieds is when someone posts a link in the petition thread and it opens a new page for me). Does that count in the above figures as a classifieds hit? If it does, its not a true reflection in my case. I am not sure if this is the case with others, I have only logged in like this since the new classifieds section came into play. Previously I never even went into classifieds.

[Stretch]

When I log into bike hub, it takes me straight to classifieds. But I straight away go to the forums without even looking at the classifieds(the only time I go into classifieds is when someone posts a link in the petition thread and it opens a new page for me). Does that count in the above figures as a classifieds hit? If it does, its not a true reflection in my case. I am not sure if this is the case with others, I have only logged in like this since the new classifieds section came into play. Previously I never even went into classifieds.

That doesn't happen for me because I use tapatalk...I wonder if tapatalk impressions count too because a lot of users use that to browse the forums

[SwissVan]

When I log into bike hub, it takes me straight to classifieds. But I straight away go to the forums without even looking at the classifieds(the only time I go into classifieds is when someone posts a link in the petition thread and it opens a new page for me). Does that count in the above figures as a classifieds hit? If it does, its not a true reflection in my case. I am not sure if this is the case with others, I have only logged in like this since the new classifieds section came into play. Previously I never even went into classifieds.

Same happens to me, I don’t use tapatalk to login

Good point you bring up, would be nice if there was a setting that could be set so as not to go to the classifieds. As someone who never needs the classifieds it drives me nuts.

[Tuxstir]

Same happens to me, I don’t use tapatalk to login

Good point you bring up, would be nice if there was a setting that could be set so as not to go to the classifieds. As someone who never needs the classifieds it drives me nuts.

 

 

What bookmark are you using to access the bikehub? I.e who are you acessing the bikehub? if you using a pc browser pin a link to either home or to a forum you would like to go to, I have one that auto redirects me to my new content page

[The Ouzo]

I don't think the stats offer a true reflection of the contribution to the hub that the off topic section offers.

Outside of cycling there is a wealth of information across the various regulars on the hub, to lose this will be a great loss to the community. The hub will become to clinical, sterile. I've witnessed seriously active forums die, its not nice.

 

I get that there has been a serious move to up revenue generation out of the forum, be careful no to kill off the very thing that generates that revenue, namely the users. Without the forums this will just be a Gumtree for bikes.

[Frosty]

I mostly use Tapatalk, but will access the web version if I have a problem uploading a photo, or YouTube link, and mostly on a weekend. When I log in on the PC, it takes me to the home page, and then I immediately go to Active Forums.

 

Like a few, I seldom use the classifieds, unless I’m looking for something specific. As for some of the threads, I might venture into them if I’m looking for specific info, or perhaps I’ve contributed previously and don’t want to scroll through hundreds of posts before finding something worthwhile.

 

If the off-topic thread is closed, it won’t mean the end of the forum, as I do come here mostly for the cycling stuff. It’s just easier to find the information in one place instead of others.