Motorists vs Cyclists.... again

[Paul Ruinaard]

4 hours ago, Graham S said:

Being on both sides, cyclist and motorcyclist I have an opinion on each side. 

When I am on my bicycle, on the road (Which is very rare as it find it extremely unsafe) I observe cyclists 90% of the time riding 2, or 3 abrest! without fail or often passing a cyclist ahead and not looking before moving over and going into the road. No shoulder checks...

Guys CYCLING ON THE N1 into town! Yes yes I know that section isnt safe, I've cycled there many times as well. You are taking the risk by riding on the highway to avoid being mugged on the cycle path, I get it. 

Cyclists cycling on roads with a very narrow yellow line, sub 500mm is just asking for trouble. Guys cycling UP and DOWN Franschoek pass which basically has no yellow line is just asking for trouble. YOU are inviting risk into your ride by riding on roads that are unsafe for bicycles. 

Removing the motorcycles racing up and down the pass. There are MASSIVE grain carriers, bakkies towing boats to the dams, car clubs and general traffic. Now add a cyclist to a blind corner with no yellow line and not enough space to pass safely and you are asking for trouble. 

AGAIN: YOU CHOSE TO CYCLE ON AN UNSAFE ROAD.

This applies to Chappies. Its a MASSIVE tourist destination with busses, cars and motorbikes (Yes I acknowledge speeding and over taking blah blah), there is NO SPACE TO CYCLE THERE SAFELY, even if all traffic is obeying the rules of the road, riding a bicycle there is not safe with the amount of traffic that goes through there. 

You accepted the risks when you went on that route, do not expect a cycling utopia just becuse its a popular route. 

On the Motorcycle side.

I've been riding motorbikes on the road and track for a long time. 

Cars dont see you, trucks dont see you, cyclists dont see you. Those roads I mentioned above are just as unsafe for motorcycles as they are for cyclists. 

We accept these risks when using the road. 

Everyone gets sad when a motorcyclist, who is riding normally, gets killed by a car turning or running a red light. But this is part of being on two wheels, bicycle or motorcycle.


Any way, sad day indeed but people only care about their side of the story and want to regulate te opposite.

The cure lies in education and correct training, but we can only dream..

Hmm - having been on bikes and motorbikes for 30 plus years and done my share of knee grinding and stupid breakfast runs i can only say there is an asusmption from 90% of the sports motorcycle riders in South Africa that they are entitled, by virtue of their license fees, to ride way above the legal speed limits and in ways that leave zero room for error. I stepped away from it and went to riding on hte track owing to the fact that theres hard scenery  and oncoming traffic on the road.

This accident is proof of all of this. 

But

Spend a Saturday or Sunday morning on Helshoogte with the bikes going up and down from Stellenbosch side and up Franschoek Pass and you will know that the sports bikers do not give. a toss. Thats a fact for the majority - i know asusmptions are dangerous but you dont buy a sports bike to ride within the speed limit. I was one of them. And a cyclist as well.

I am sorry i dont agree with you when you say you accept the risk when you use the road. Apologies but that is hogwash..You accept that everyone should conduct themslevses accordingly and that one of you is not entitled to place the others at risk.

 

[Graham S]

10 minutes ago, Paul Ruinaard said:

Hmm - having been on bikes and motorbikes for 30 plus years and done my share of knee grinding and stupid breakfast runs i can only say there is an asusmption from 90% of the sports motorcycle riders in South Africa that they are entitled, by virtue of their license fees, to ride way above the legal speed limits and in ways that leave zero room for error. I stepped away from it and went to riding on hte track owing to the fact that theres hard scenery  and oncoming traffic on the road.

This accident is proof of all of this. 

But

Spend a Saturday or Sunday morning on Helshoogte with the bikes going up and down from Stellenbosch side and up Franschoek Pass and you will know that the sports bikers do not give. a toss. Thats a fact for the majority - i know asusmptions are dangerous but you dont buy a sports bike to ride within the speed limit. I was one of them. And a cyclist as well.

I am sorry i dont agree with you when you say you accept the risk when you use the road. Apologies but that is hogwash..You accept that everyone should conduct themslevses accordingly and that one of you is not entitled to place the others at risk.

 

It still comes down to assuming other road users are are going to use the road in a predicatable and lawful way. Sitting back and saying they should conduct themselves accordingly is just ignorant to the reality of our roads.

If a road is known to be used by racers often would you then not come to the conclusion that that section of road is more dangerous than any other "normal" section of road and thus the chance of an incident is higher?

 

Which is my original point.

Ride on known dangerous road = accepting the risk.

You cant fall back on the assumption that road users are going to act accordingly. 

I full agree with you that superbike riders and weekend warriors dont give a **** about the rules of the road and will continue racing up and down hells hoogte, franschoek, rooi els etc. 

My point is that this is the known state of those roads, so cycling there is accepting it. 


 

[Oli4]

A lot of comments about how dangerous Chappies is or isn't.. My 2 cents as a cyclist and motorist who lives next to it...

• Some segments are dangerous for cyclists when it is windy. No way around that.
• It is not especially dangerous when all road users respect the 40km/h limit (the 20km/h limit on a segment of the South side is a bit extreme in my opinion).
• Cyclists and runners have to be quite conscious that there are many rental cars driven by tourists who can be distracted when they get out of their parking spot.
• A few bad apples (cyclists, cars and bikers) make it very dangerous for everybody, especially on Sunday mornings. Those have to be stopped - a few speed traps and cameras can sort it out, if there is a will.

[Paul Ruinaard]

10 minutes ago, Graham S said:

It still comes down to assuming other road users are are going to use the road in a predicatable and lawful way. Sitting back and saying they should conduct themselves accordingly is just ignorant to the reality of our roads.

If a road is known to be used by racers often would you then not come to the conclusion that that section of road is more dangerous than any other "normal" section of road and thus the chance of an incident is higher?

 

Which is my original point.

Ride on known dangerous road = accepting the risk.

You cant fall back on the assumption that road users are going to act accordingly. 

I full agree with you that superbike riders and weekend warriors dont give a **** about the rules of the road and will continue racing up and down hells hoogte, franschoek, rooi els etc. 

My point is that this is the known state of those roads, so cycling there is accepting it. 


 

Agreed. Sadly you are right. Its very frustrating.

You may choose to cycle on an unsafe road. Thats a value assessment you make and By definition most roads are unsafe for cyclists.  You conduct yourself accordingly and mitigate your risks. That's why i have front and back flashers. I wish I could show you how many people have no lighting and nothing that would alert a car to them. I wish it wasn't true. People don't do anything to mitigate risks 

I also wish cyclists were not acting like arrogant pr$cks all the time but especially before cycle tour and didn't think three riding abreast was the best way to avoid the cars overtaking them. Massive bunches all over the road blocking cars overtaking them deliberately.

Its so sad that you can't put the genie back in the bottle on this one. it was just a matter of time before this happened. The margins for error are Zero TBH. Biker overtaking on white line, cyclist runs wide on a corner. Bad timing. It could all have been avoided and been a near miss.

I get so upset because i see this every weekend and its obvious what the outcome will be. Also I suppose its a reflection on me - i am out on these roads on my roadbikes - chappies, helshoogte etc, so it could have been me.

TBH the comments on twitter make my blod boil.

 

[Mamil]

https://www.facebook.com/reel/706074271365583?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v

[117]

1 hour ago, Oli4 said:

I read your entire post. I am not sure what you wanted me to do - let you "pass on information that [you] find factual" when it directly contradicts what I witnessed? You were not by the scene. You have nothing "factual". I was there. And I know speeding & reckless driving when I see it. 

When you write "I hear the cyclist was concused and is now in icu for standard check ups", it also contradicts all the information given so far (family and Stay Wider of the Rider).

And no - I don't trust "authorities to sort it out" in SA, especially when the victim is unconscious in ICU and certainly not in a position to lay charges. 

 

No, you obviously didnt read the part where i said dont take your emotions out on me as the poster. 

No i wasnt there, and as i clearly stated i am merely passing on information. You decided on your own to bring emotions into it, not me. 

Perhaps take a breather then post again without emotional input, or go see someone about it as you could be traumatised by the event. Im not being sarcastic about it either

As for the local authorities,  there you and I agree but the outcome is not going to be decided here in the local court of social media, is it?

[Shebeen]

1 hour ago, 117 said:

No, you obviously didnt read the part where i said dont take your emotions out on me as the poster. 

No i wasnt there, and as i clearly stated i am merely passing on information. You decided on your own to bring emotions into it, not me. 

Perhaps take a breather then post again without emotional input, or go see someone about it as you could be traumatised by the event. Im not being sarcastic about it either

As for the local authorities,  there you and I agree but the outcome is not going to be decided here in the local court of social media, is it?

The messenger can  get shot if he adds his input to the message.  

It's good that you are standing up for your buddies, but the conflicting stories don't add up so maybe you're the one who should take a step back. 

[cadenceblur]

Surely this driver can be located via cameras 🎥 at entrance and exit?

[117]

47 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

The messenger can  get shot if he adds his input to the message.  

It's good that you are standing up for your buddies, but the conflicting stories don't add up so maybe you're the one who should take a step back. 

Yeah, you're right. Lets keep it one sided then. 

As you were

[vanniri]

3 hours ago, Paul Ruinaard said:

Hmm - having been on bikes and motorbikes for 30 plus years and done my share of knee grinding and stupid breakfast runs i can only say there is an asusmption from 90% of the sports motorcycle riders in South Africa that they are entitled, by virtue of their license fees, to ride way above the legal speed limits and in ways that leave zero room for error. I stepped away from it and went to riding on hte track owing to the fact that theres hard scenery  and oncoming traffic on the road.

This accident is proof of all of this. 

But

Spend a Saturday or Sunday morning on Helshoogte with the bikes going up and down from Stellenbosch side and up Franschoek Pass and you will know that the sports bikers do not give. a toss. Thats a fact for the majority - i know asusmptions are dangerous but you dont buy a sports bike to ride within the speed limit. I was one of them. And a cyclist as well.

I am sorry i dont agree with you when you say you accept the risk when you use the road. Apologies but that is hogwash..You accept that everyone should conduct themslevses accordingly and that one of you is not entitled to place the others at risk.

 

Once coming down F/hoek pass I could hear the ABS clapping from a superbike braking for me...

Also saw two guys on bikes at different times taking a tumble in front of me, one not more than 10 meters in front (after passing me) loosing control. I stopped and picked up his fenders and some scrap. He never got up...

Passed at least two bikers under blankets on Hels and Franschhoek - excl the above.

Luckily I live close to the F/hoek pass, as such I have ample opportunity to ride it. Plenty of times I have turned around when either cars or bikes are using it as a racing track.

About a year ago a bakkie with a trailer passed me while descending, he ever so slightly clipped me with the trailer. Took a tumble at >70km/h. Hardest I have ever fallen...

Stay safe 

 

[DieselnDust]

3 hours ago, Graham S said:

It still comes down to assuming other road users are are going to use the road in a predicatable and lawful way. Sitting back and saying they should conduct themselves accordingly is just ignorant to the reality of our roads.

If a road is known to be used by racers often would you then not come to the conclusion that that section of road is more dangerous than any other "normal" section of road and thus the chance of an incident is higher?

 

Which is my original point.

Ride on known dangerous road = accepting the risk.

You cant fall back on the assumption that road users are going to act accordingly. 

I full agree with you that superbike riders and weekend warriors dont give a **** about the rules of the road and will continue racing up and down hells hoogte, franschoek, rooi els etc. 

My point is that this is the known state of those roads, so cycling there is accepting it. 


 

Best you stay indoors and keep banging on that keyboard while  the rest of us train for Argust 

[RossTopher]

excuse my little anecdote, but here goes.

Last time i was on Chapmans (outside of CTCT), i was almost hit head on by a car. i was way left, going towards Hout bay, on a dead straight, fairly flat section. Pajero came around the bend ahead, entirely in my lane. Driver had his arm out, filming the scenery. i am a glass 3/4 empty kinda person, so i'm fairly prepared for threats. i was luckily able to get on the brakes and pit into the run off. i had to stop for a while to let the heart rate and adrenaline drop.

last year, on Bottelary coming towards before the Hazendal corner. i was in the emergency lane/. if you know Bottelary, you know its wide. Old fella in his Q7 with all 4 wheels over the middle and heading towards me. i was waving my arms as they approached and he yanked left. i'd almost come to a halt and he'd touched the yellow at one point.

in both instances, i was essentially on my own. about 10 metres behind my riding partner, so the drivers had already passed a cyclist before me. Front and Rear lights on EVERY ride i do.

yes, some roads are more "cycling friendly" than others, but the idea that riding chappies or any other narrow pass is somehow an acceptance of risk is bizarre.

So long as this narcissistic trajectory that society is on, continues, the concept of sharing this planet is lost

Edited February 19 by RossTopher

[Shebeen]

49 minutes ago, 117 said:

Yeah, you're right. Lets keep it one sided then. 

As you were

No. The only side we all want is the truth. 

For someone who is telling people to read properly you really are not taking your own medicine. 

 

Have an opinion? Fine, air it, as you did. But don't then say, "hey! leave me out if it, I'm just passing the info on".

Can't have your cake AND eat it.  

Edit: rereading your opening post, the first sentence has  huge implication (maybe unintended).

Edited February 19 by Shebeen

[Mamil]

Leading causes of death in ZA are TB, heart disease, HIV, hypertension, influenza, cerebro vascular illnesses.... In more or less that order 

Motor vehicle accidents just miss the top 10 at about 12.5k per annum

COVID trumped TB (about 27k per annum) by almost double ... A total of about 100k COVID deaths across 2020 and 21.

RIding over chappies without a suit of armour and relying on your own puff to do it , while something only we cyclists do which skews the stats of course, is not as risky as.... Breathing or eating too much boerewors or drinking alcohol.

Every good wish to the cyclist who's in ICU.

I will ride over chappies often twice in one ride and will continue to do so. I will exercise my obligation to look after myself and other road users while I do it and I request that others do the same.

WHen you see a cyclist pass him/her as if he were your father or your sister or your child.

 

 

[Robbie Stewart]

10 hours ago, MTBeer said:

as a resident of the estate in Melkbos, it is a bit of a clusterfck exiting the estate onto the beach road on a busy weekend morning. The only way to get accross is to inch into the cycle lane so that you can actually see the oncoming traffic. If you stop behind the STOP line you can't see much. And then when you inch accross the cyclists ride around the front of your car. There is no way of getting out there without everyone (cyclists Included) having a bit of patience

I decided I don't race cars on that cycle path anymore. If I see a car I slow down until it's gone or if I'm too close already I stop until it goes. I've given up trying to be right all the time. 

[117]

6 hours ago, Shebeen said:

No. The only side we all want is the truth. 

For someone who is telling people to read properly you really are not taking your own medicine. 

 

Have an opinion? Fine, air it, as you did. But don't then say, "hey! leave me out if it, I'm just passing the info on".

Can't have your cake AND eat it.  

Edit: rereading your opening post, the first sentence has  huge implication (maybe unintended).

I agree, lets get the truth. Its obviously not going to happen here, so lets wait for the (great) authorities, yes?

Im really not sure how you see my remark of please read properly and leave me out of it as a cake eating exercise. That would imply that I am pushing to promote my opinion as the gospel truth, whereby I am not. 
If I had said "guess what I heard..." would that have made you read it differently and respond to my comment differently? Perhaps yes, perhaps not. 

My opening remark is as it stands, I am connected to a riding group that knows the motorbike driver. To what huge implication do you refer? Does that make me in automatic agreement with the info I provided? You seem to think it does. Does it make me accoutable to what I transcribed, Yes it would. Does it give you the right of emotional reply? Certainly not. A factual reply, yes sure. Lambasting myself or every motorcyclist out there in the reply doesnt give you the right of reply either. 

Whilst I do not endorse the actions of either road user, it by no means attributes any blame game from me to who was right or wrong in this case. You seem to think I am automatically for the motorbike driver and all forms of holiganism that is attributed to all evil people on 2 wheels with more than a few horse power avialable to them.

There is clear arguments for the pro's and con's of each road user in this entire thread (not only in this instance), and my info provided here is merely to highlight what is said on the otherside of the fence. 

I do, however, recognise that this might be a bit close to home to many cyclists in the area - perhaps you too, but please dont think for a second that I condone the actions of any road user that steps out of line. 

In closing, all users of the road know that it is an inherently dangerous game we all play everytime we get onto it, be in in a car, a bus, a taxi (heaven forbid), etc, and if you choose to increase that risk by using a patricularly dangerous part of the network of roads available then that is your choice, not mine. My love for the south african road and its users has diminished far beyond what you can imagine.
Mosty people avaoid these areas becuase of the risks involved. Period

As for the cyclist, I am very sorry for what happened to him and for where he is right now. I sincerely hope he will be on his bike again soon enough

 

 

 

Edited February 20 by 117
spelling - the chaps in the east will be happier now